Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 52 guests

Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by munroburton   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 8:01 pm

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2368
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

Jonathan_S wrote:I agree there's a hard limit - but you might have been too simplistic in calculating it.

By using the wormhole to save 65 days not only saves the owner 65 days of loan payments, salary, maintenance, etc. but using the wormhole consistently also generates revenue more frequently. Cutting the average trip duration in half should double the annual revenue a ship can generate.

And so a shipping line judging the point where a wormhole transit becomes unaffordable must be balancing the fees incurred against a combination of both their cost savings and their additional revenue possible per year.

Of course not all trade routes get equal benefit from the wormhole, so climbing fee will choke off some routes before others.


That kind of indirect cargo taxing is theoretically possible, but could be very volatile. Reusing the Suez example, due to fluctuations in oil prices, tankers sometimes find it more economical to not pay the canal's fee and instead travel the long way around. The same tankers also tend to be empty on their return legs.

It'd definitely happen if a wormhole was saturated with traffic and had to force low-value cargoes out. That'd be something like 150 freighters per bridge per day - hard to say if traffic at the MWJ is that heavy yet. Otherwise, they might as well collect an universal fee from even empty ships returning somewhere.
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:40 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8306
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

munroburton wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:I agree there's a hard limit - but you might have been too simplistic in calculating it.

By using the wormhole to save 65 days not only saves the owner 65 days of loan payments, salary, maintenance, etc. but using the wormhole consistently also generates revenue more frequently. Cutting the average trip duration in half should double the annual revenue a ship can generate.

And so a shipping line judging the point where a wormhole transit becomes unaffordable must be balancing the fees incurred against a combination of both their cost savings and their additional revenue possible per year.

Of course not all trade routes get equal benefit from the wormhole, so climbing fee will choke off some routes before others.


That kind of indirect cargo taxing is theoretically possible, but could be very volatile. Reusing the Suez example, due to fluctuations in oil prices, tankers sometimes find it more economical to not pay the canal's fee and instead travel the long way around. The same tankers also tend to be empty on their return legs.

It'd definitely happen if a wormhole was saturated with traffic and had to force low-value cargoes out. That'd be something like 150 freighters per bridge per day - hard to say if traffic at the MWJ is that heavy yet. Otherwise, they might as well collect an universal fee from even empty ships returning somewhere.

Yes you could reach wormhole saturation. But 150 freighters per bridge per day is still almost 10 minutes between transits. Though there would be some level of other traffic (couriers, warships, etc.) that'd drive down that delay somewhat.

Still 150 per bridge per day seems too low a number for a maximum allowed.


During OBS "Under normal circumstances, the Junction handled inbound and outbound vessels at an average rate of one every three minutes, day in and day out, year after year." But that seems to be the average across the entire Junction; so spread unevenly across the 6 then known remote termini.

And several years later in EOH we're told that "Under normal circumstances, the minimum allowable transit window was one minute. Usually the windows actually ran considerably longer than that, since the number of ships awaiting passage was seldom large enough to cause ACS to push the minimum." That is probably up some, despite the higher fees, since OBS but sounds like even the busiest remote termini within the junction were still, say, 5 minutes minimum (or 288 transits per day).

We also know that there often seems to be a queue of ships waiting to transit and it could exceed 25 minutes. (Since we've seen queues chased off during EoH's emergency transits, and even in OBS HMS Fearless not only had to wait her turn to transit, but her pinnaces out at Basilisk ACS were responsible for policing their transit queue) So ACS must have some metric for how lengthy queue is acceptable and use that to adjust the transit window lengths - rather than cranking down the delay to try to zero out any queue as quickly as possible.


Still Manticoran ACS determined that the hard max is 1,440 transits per day! OTOH if any of those transits mass more than about 6.1 mtons they'll reduce that total since the transit will lock that bridge down for over 60 seconds. An 8.5 mton freighter would lock it down about 116 seconds (so even flat out you could only transit about 740 of them a day per bridge).


It's been years since EoH but I'd still be surprised if any leg of the Junction had ever been consistently pushing close to its maximum allowed transits per day.
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:32 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5068
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 5:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

Jonathan_S wrote:Yes you could reach wormhole saturation. But 150 freighters per bridge per day is still almost 10 minutes between transits. Though there would be some level of other traffic (couriers, warships, etc.) that'd drive down that delay somewhat.

Still 150 per bridge per day seems too low a number for a maximum allowed.


During OBS "Under normal circumstances, the Junction handled inbound and outbound vessels at an average rate of one every three minutes, day in and day out, year after year." But that seems to be the average across the entire Junction; so spread unevenly across the 6 then known remote termini.

And several years later in EOH we're told that "Under normal circumstances, the minimum allowable transit window was one minute. Usually the windows actually ran considerably longer than that, since the number of ships awaiting passage was seldom large enough to cause ACS to push the minimum." That is probably up some, despite the higher fees, since OBS but sounds like even the busiest remote termini within the junction were still, say, 5 minutes minimum (or 288 transits per day).

We also know that there often seems to be a queue of ships waiting to transit and it could exceed 25 minutes. (Since we've seen queues chased off during EoH's emergency transits, and even in OBS HMS Fearless not only had to wait her turn to transit, but her pinnaces out at Basilisk ACS were responsible for policing their transit queue) So ACS must have some metric for how lengthy queue is acceptable and use that to adjust the transit window lengths - rather than cranking down the delay to try to zero out any queue as quickly as possible.


Still Manticoran ACS determined that the hard max is 1,440 transits per day! OTOH if any of those transits mass more than about 6.1 mtons they'll reduce that total since the transit will lock that bridge down for over 60 seconds. An 8.5 mton freighter would lock it down about 116 seconds (so even flat out you could only transit about 740 of them a day per bridge).


It's been years since EoH but I'd still be surprised if any leg of the Junction had ever been consistently pushing close to its maximum allowed transits per day.


Since the transits have to be synchronized without communications, I wonder if they have a cadence of different sized transit windows. First a set of max tonnage windows in and out, next a set of Courier/light warship windows, then again Max tonnage, and repeating. A Courier could take a max slot If no large ships were in the Queue, but a Large ship would need to wait until a MAX slot was available, in order to keep up the correct timing.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:57 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4150
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:39 am

Theemile wrote:Since the transits have to be synchronized without communications, I wonder if they have a cadence of different sized transit windows. First a set of max tonnage windows in and out, next a set of Courier/light warship windows, then again Max tonnage, and repeating. A Courier could take a max slot If no large ships were in the Queue, but a Large ship would need to wait until a MAX slot was available, in order to keep up the correct timing.


Each ship that transits brings in information from ACS from the other side. So they're always in communication.

Even if an emergency reshuffling happens, it's not going to be needed in less than 2 minutes, so there's time for the ship at the head of the queue to transit with updated queue details. The worst case is that an 8.5 mtonne freighter gets told to veer off and a lighter ship is sent instead with the updated situation.
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:39 pm

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8306
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Each ship that transits brings in information from ACS from the other side. So they're always in communication.

Even if an emergency reshuffling happens, it's not going to be needed in less than 2 minutes, so there's time for the ship at the head of the queue to transit with updated queue details. The worst case is that an 8.5 mtonne freighter gets told to veer off and a lighter ship is sent instead with the updated situation.

And really the only thing that the two ACS absolutely need to know is when the wormhole will unblock and which side is authorized to send the next ship (since the blockages caused by transits are bi-directional).

The arriving ship would report its mass (and hence how long the wormhole was blocked), and presumably pass along which side was authorized to send the next ship.


And for situations where there wasn't another ship waiting to go the ACS could use a simple time based tick-tock mechanism, say based on 5 minute intervals, to avoid any possibility of attempting to transit from both sides near simultaneously. Say that, for example, after a lull in traffic the first ship leaving from the Junction must transit on the 5s while the first ship leaving from the remote termini must transit on the 10s.

Whichever ship's time came up first would jump though carrying a message to the other ACS updating them on the current situation. Possibly that message might allow them to claim more time (say if a convoy showed up together the first ship though could carry the message that 5 more would be coming through on X-minute intervals without a break for return traffic until after the 5th ship)
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Brigade XO   » Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:48 pm

Brigade XO
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3115
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:31 pm
Location: KY

Any change in rates will probably have a warning period but that doesn' have to be.

Sure, you could tranship goods to a Manti freighter but that will still cost time to do and then you have to have somebody make the arrangements for what happens after that transhipment. Certainly shipping agents have a good idea of the "normal" routine scheudled freighter traffic on route- if not the actual ship name- but it becomes a case of moving the cargo most quickly with fewest numbers of transfers.

And then there is the penalty clauses if you have to not use a wormhole to get somewhere your are scheduld to be. If you are snagged by a rate change that was just applied you may have to eat that to avoid all sorts of penalties AND insurance companies getting peved with you. You also have to take into account that there may not be any other potential customers or at least stopping points on your next (not so) best alternative to using a given worm hole since there may not be any possible stopping points to carry cargo to and from in apreciable (and profit making) quantities. So your costs go up....
Which brings us to the non-Manti ships which do have various rate brakes and in a surprizingly short amount of time ships and shipping agents will be looking to take advantage of lower cost through transport (no transfers at termini) and can extend the routes of ships to cover more cargo.
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 8:44 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:The author was a bit annoyed when I suggested that Manticore would and should raise the fees to use the MWJ to offset the massive losses occurred from the historically consistent method of draining the coffer. War.

I don't quite understand his annoyance with the idea. I wonder if there is something in HoS which explains the Manties' reluctance to raise fees to offset the massive losses. Have they never raised the fees on the junction in it's long history? Were there repercussions of wars or rumors of wars if they ever did not ever would? Perhaps there was a promise never to raise the fees of the MWJ.

The WHJ lost a lot of its activity and revenue. And some of mankind throughout the galaxy is cut off from trade with each other. It's like God confounding the tongues of mankind and scattering the tribes. I suppose the SL and the Haven sector no longer speak the same language either.


Manticore actually did raise the Wormhole rates several times on the junction during the wars, and it was hotly debated in universe when they did so. Perhaps you are misinterpreting what the author was meaning.

No, he made it quite clear.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:28 am

Jonathan_S
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 8306
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm
Location: Virginia, USA

cthia wrote:
cthia wrote:The author was a bit annoyed when I suggested that Manticore would and should raise the fees to use the MWJ to offset the massive losses occurred from the historically consistent method of draining the coffer. War.

I don't quite understand his annoyance with the idea. I wonder if there is something in HoS which explains the Manties' reluctance to raise fees to offset the massive losses. Have they never raised the fees on the junction in it's long history? Were there repercussions of wars or rumors of wars if they ever did not ever would? Perhaps there was a promise never to raise the fees of the MWJ.

The WHJ lost a lot of its activity and revenue. And some of mankind throughout the galaxy is cut off from trade with each other. It's like God confounding the tongues of mankind and scattering the tribes. I suppose the SL and the Haven sector no longer speak the same language either.

Theemile wrote:Manticore actually did raise the Wormhole rates several times on the junction during the wars, and it was hotly debated in universe when they did so. Perhaps you are misinterpreting what the author was meaning.

No, he made it quite clear.
I don't think RFC is saying that the fees have never been raised; I think he's just saying they're not going to be raised again now. I believe that the "prewar" fee schedule he's referring to is the one from before the war with the League; not the one from before the war with Haven.

The books are quite clear that junction fees did increase during the war with Haven. They don't say how the rates may have changed during the ceasefire and second war - but I'd be surprised it High Ridge let them drop back to, say, 1905 levels during his tenure. If he's holding onto war emergency taxation to fund his domestic programs I can't see him willingly forgoing the extra fee based revenue (which is huge, paid in significant part by those outside the SKM, and carries a low domestic political cost to hang onto). And even once his government falls I can't see Manticore deciding to reduce fees the moment a shooting war restarts - and by the time they force an end to the war with Haven OB has happened and they know they'll need huge amounts of money to rebuild their heavy industry and naval yards; so again can't see a rate decrease after the war with Haven. So going into the war with the League I strongly suspect the Junction fees were still at, or very near, their wartime high.
runsforcelery wrote:(4) The Star Empire of Manticore most certainly is not going to start hiking the Junction transit fees. First, that would be really, really bad from a political perspective. By leaving the fee schedules where they were prewar for Solarian shipping, they demonstrate a restraint that any thinking Solarian knows perfectly well OFS wouldn't have demonstrated if it had succeeded in taking over the Junction. Second, the revenue stream being generated by the Junction, especially with Talbott added to the equation and the high probability of mutual defense/usage treaties with several of the newly independent star systems who happen to have wormhole termini in their stellar backyards, is enormous. It always has been, which is the main reason the Star Empire's taxes were so low. They do have a lot of debt to pay down, especially after the damages of Oyster Bay, however they've already more than paid their way with their allies in the form of the new tech they've made available. I am sure that Elizabeth, who has very good diplomatic smarts when she isn't hating on a star nation that, oh, murdered her father, her uncle, her cousin, her prime minister, etc., is well aware of the need to not "sponge off" Haven, and of her obligations to Grayson, and she will most definitely meet them.

What I read this as is RFC saying that Manticore will NOT be applying punitive fees on Solarian shipping after the war with the League. That avoids a further antagonization to members of the League by singling them out for reparations via targeted shipping fees. They'd keep the Junction fees at their pre-Leage-War levels (so most likely their already heightened War with Haven levels) for everybody.

That will provide sufficient income to secure and eventually pay off their reconstruction debts. And it will be more diplomatically acceptable than even an across the board increase since everyone's already had years to get used to the current (increased) fee levels.
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by cthia   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:07 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Oh, it's almost a given the fees were raised countless times before. That fact makes it even more unfathomable that they wouldn't be raised NOW. After the most incredulous losses ever incurred by the system? Which, quite frankly, has left the MBS quite vulnerable. More vulnerable than it has ever been in a long long hands of hands. All while under threat from perhaps their biggest foe of all time.

Sure, the Havenites are throwing in with them. But what if something happens to that bank and they can no longer borrow from the Havenites? That doesn't necessarily mean the Peeps will turn coat again, but they can be attacked and taken out too. And Bolthole as well. It is imperative that the MBS is rebuilt as quickly as possible.

Besides, is it unreasonable to temporarily raise fees while informing everyone concerned that it is only temporary, then making everyone happy when they are reduced?

Besides, who in the galaxy wouldn't even expect it? Considering all what was lost.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Did the MBS corner the market on trade?
Post by munroburton   » Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:39 am

munroburton
Admiral

Posts: 2368
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:16 am
Location: Scotland

cthia wrote:Oh, it's almost a given the fees were raised countless times before. That fact makes it even more unfathomable that they wouldn't be raised NOW. After the most incredulous losses ever incurred by the system? Which, quite frankly, has left the MBS quite vulnerable. More vulnerable than it has ever been in a long long hands of hands. All while under threat from perhaps their biggest foe of all time.

Sure, the Havenites are throwing in with them. But what if something happens to that bank and they can no longer borrow from the Havenites? That doesn't necessarily mean the Peeps will turn coat again, but they can be attacked and taken out too. And Bolthole as well. It is imperative that the MBS is rebuilt as quickly as possible.

Besides, is it unreasonable to temporarily raise fees while informing everyone concerned that it is only temporary, then making everyone happy when they are reduced?

Besides, who in the galaxy wouldn't even expect it? Considering all what was lost.


I'm sure by now, the galaxy has had long experiences of "temporary" taxes which turn out to be anything but. Until they actually do go away, the better assumption is that they're permanent. High Ridge can be thanked for recently stringing out that "temporary" tax from the first war until a second one started.

The main problem with raising fees at this point is that much of the junction's traffic stopped due to the Solarian war. Whatever the fees were, they couldn't pay them and transit. So all those ships went to do something else and it will take time to reset.

Keeping the fees lower arguably encourages them to return sooner rather than later.

If the rest of the galaxy expects raised fees, so much the better. Good PR and improved relations on the interstellar stage are very important to Manticore. They can't look like they're using their newfound naval dominance to push fees where they've never been.
Top

Return to Honorverse