cthia wrote:IINM, there were Hermes Buoys littering the system, and they were introduced to Tsang. There were way too many to have been put there "recently." Even if they were, recent additions, Tsang had to have been blown away by the revelation that FTL capability wasn't just a pipe dream, and that their own founding member was not only comfortable with them being emplaced in the system, but was actually intimate with them long enough to have gotten over the capability.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:The text isn't explicit whether Truman was talking to Tsang via FTL comms. The conversations across 30 seconds of light-lag are reported as normal conversations (even the ones taking 45 minutes, as if anyone would keep staring at a screen that long while waiting for an answer). So it's possible when Truman crashed the party, she was using regular light speed comms. But it's equally likely she was using an FTL relay so she could respond as quickly as Adm. Holmon-Sanders. Such a relay could easily have been deployed by Truman for the express purpose of talking to Tsang, so it's not a substantial investment nor did it need to take place more than a few minutes earlier.
I think it is obvious there were FTL platforms in the system. I think it was obvious to Tsang as well. However, as I stated, I'm NOT quite sure textev explicitly supports either... that it was obious to Tsang, or that the platforms were indeed in the system. The overarching point — which is what RFC weighed in about — still stands. Beowulf was privy to Manty FTL and didn't inform her "master."
It isn't about the monetary value (investment) of seeding the system the League would be up in arms about. It is the fact that their founding member withheld information of its reality from them. Even if, somehow, you can manage to downplay the OVERALL investment of FTL, a talking point which would undoubtedly interest the League. Research. Production. Security. THEN the cost of the platforms.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Aside from that, there's no reported FTL in the system. That doesn't mean there wasn't any, but Tsang wasn't exposed to it. If there was, it was probably installed and operated by the RMN. The RMN can do that for anyone it chooses to, in any system that will accept its conditions and provide sufficient security for a state secret. Since there was no declaration of war, the SEM was a trading partner in good standing. There's no reason such an installation would be a betrayal.
Again, it is obvious there were platforms in the system. Obvious to Tsang as well. Every ship knows how long any particular phone call takes. Tsang WAS exposed to it.
Well, we know for certain, NOW, that it was legally okay for Beowulf to utilize advanced foreign tech and not confer with the League on it. The author confirmed that fact. But the author cannot control how the arrogant - browbeat them into submission for centuries - gorilla would ultimately perceive that fact. Especially when it is confronted with that fact in the midst of the largest most significant most important war operation of its life.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:There's no betrayal here.
I commend you because you really seem to believe that. I'll concede there was no TECHNICAL breach of contract. Again, confirmed by the author. But the entire "Karma" thread centers around Beowulf's IMPLIED obligations to the League. No, make that, to the arrogant gorilla. In the face of Operation Raging Justice and — I'm not going to specifically argue the niggling little details of a formal or de facto war, again — in the eyes of the Mandarins who controlled the gorilla, it was war. In the eyes of the 800# gorilla dispatched to wreak havoc. It was war. When a large part of the gorilla's body arrived in-system, Tsang, it was war.
Being confronted with the reality that Beowulf had been sitting on a wealth of information about the enemy's capabilities was plain outright bullshit. Tsang's lividity was not misplaced OR out of order. And, lets face it, the FTL capability the Manties possessed is a wealth of information, even without the fact that it raises accurate suspicions that Beowulf almost undoubtedly were privy to much much more. Suddenly, the SL's warships who were never able to deliver concrete proof of Manty superweapons became a moot point. Since that knowledge had rested with their own fornicating founder the entire time.
cthia wrote:That fact is what led to RFC crashing a party when we were positing that Beowulf broke some sort of "code of ethics" at the very least, if not an outright breach against the League for not divulging the reality of Manty FTL.
I'm telling you, "Straight out of a sci-fi novel," says Tsang.
I'm going to use my own lone black channel just this once, Tsang. It WAS straight out of a sci-fi novel.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:RFC gets to choose what the laws and regulations are. If he says member worlds are not required to divulge secrets it acquires to the League government, then they aren't.
An abortion that I had no choice but to concede to the author, and now to you. But even the author has a limited control of human nature, lest he wants to send me a lifetime supply of handwavium to assist in my suspension of disbelief. There's no way in hell Tsang wasn't reeling in disbelief. Enough disbelief that she could have temporarily went off her rocker at the nerve of Beowulf. The same disease that befell Honor. TemPoFuckingRary insanity-induced mayhem.
Might? You think??? I would render that a definite obligation.ThinksMarkedly wrote:And even then there may be nuances. A member world might be obligated to pass along information material to the security of the SL.
However, it seems our author disagrees. He says a member does not have to inform the SL or share any tech they may come by. I wanted to argue that point, but I had already used too many of my intransigence passes with him before. How can it not be implied that an ally would inform you of any game changing tech that can surely get you dead!? (I'll look for RFC's post to ensure I don't misquote him.) Manna!
ThinksMarkedly wrote: But there's a judgement call here: what is material to the security of the SL?
Well, I'm absolutely certain you'd have to agree that FTL technology and all of the associated tech it enabled is certainly one memo that certainly fills the bill.
ThinksMarkedly wrote: The SEM had no intention of invading the SL. There was no declaration of war, making the SEM an enemy of the SL.
It is IRRELEVANT what the SEM's invasion plans were. The Vietnamese had no intentions of invading the US either. Would it have been ok for an American ally to suddenly grow a conscience in the middle of our invasion, take matters into their own hands and "turncoat?" Besides, an enemy's plans change. Even more than that, war had already been declared upon the League by Manticore. Economic war. Kolokoltsov had informed Carmichael that closing the junctions to all Solarian registered vessels was indeed an act of war. And it was. The damned WHJ enabled an overt act of war that had lasted for centuries. The League tried to mitigate that fact and get a handle on it with the Shingaine Convention that the Manties had refused to sign. That showed their unwillingness to play fairly, as far as the League was concerned.
INCIDENTALLY, TEXTEV DOES NOT SAY WHETHER HAVEN WAS A SIGNATORY, AFAIK. WHICH WOULD BE AN INTERESTING DETAIL. IF THEY WEREN'T, THEN THE LEAGUE SHOULD HAVE LEANED ON THEM FOR SUPPORT. ESPECIALLY SINCE HAVEN KEPT BORROWING SUGAR, MILK AND TECH FROM THEM. AT LEAST TRY TO SOMEWHAT MITIGATE THEIR ABILITY TO CORNER THE MARKETS.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:The Beowulf System Board of Directors can truthfully say that it was trying to prevent a misunderstanding (Byng) from escalating any further than Crandall already had. And they were so saying, in the League Congress.
Bollox. I agree that Beowulf can truthfully tell an outright lie. They did NOT do all they could have done, indeed should have done, to prevent the inevitable catastrophe brewing from the misunderstanding, as I outlined in the Karma thread for tlb. Regardless of that fact, and as a direct consequence of Beowulf's failure, the time for diplomacy had passed. In the middle of war operations was NOT Beowulf's place to argue the finer points of the Constitution, or war.
ThinksMarkedly wrote:The blatant illegal attempted invasion of an ally without formal declaration of war and attempted coercion and threatening of Solarian citizens (in the form of BSDF personnel) prompted Beowulf to suspend its ties until the plebiscite. When it does so, it does not have to obey League rules even if a formal declaration of war happened.
Where did you get THAT abortion? A wife's duties are still in play until AFTER the divorce is finalized. Sad, but true. In the middle of the war is the last place she better get uppity. Again sad, but true. I don't control the human nature of an arrogant abusive gorilla, so don't shoot the messenger.