Did the MBS corner the market on trade?

The author was a bit annoyed when I suggested that Manticore would and should raise the fees to use the MWJ to offset the massive losses occurred from the historically consistent method of draining the coffer. War.

I don't quite understand his annoyance with the idea. I wonder if there is something in HoS which explains the Manties' reluctance to raise fees to offset the massive losses. Have they never raised the fees on the junction in it's long history? Were there repercussions of wars or rumors of wars if they ever did not ever would? Perhaps there was a promise never to raise the fees of the MWJ.

The WHJ lost a lot of its activity and revenue. And some of mankind throughout the galaxy is cut off from trade with each other. It's like God confounding the tongues of mankind and scattering the tribes. I suppose the SL and the Haven sector no longer speak the same language either.

the fess have already been raised quite a bit to help offset the costs of the first and second haven wars. look up the start of Honor Among Enemies, when Haputman comments on how much extra the SKM's merchies are paying towards the war. that was when the war was still relatively young, by the time of Butercup I hate think how much higher the fees would have been. Not sure if High ridge lowered them, given how much government money he stole or wasted, keeping them high (especially as there was no true peace just a cease fire) would have given even more money to play with, which means more money for bribes to keep people on his side for as long as possible.

with the losses of ships etc in Thunderbolt I seriously doubt Willie and Elizabeth will have considered lowering them, with how much of the fleet they had to replace.

raising them again after oyster bay and a economic war against the biggest polity in the galaxy, and one that will remain so even after after your little war with them, is more likely to REDUCE traffic and income.

now holding onto to some of the wormhole bridges they took during Lacoon and charging fess for their use, might be an option but one fraught with much politicking and accusations of taking over from OFS.

cthia wrote:The author was a bit annoyed when I suggested that Manticore would and should raise the fees to use the MWJ to offset the massive losses occurred from the historically consistent method of draining the coffer. War.

I don't quite understand his annoyance with the idea. I wonder if there is something in HoS which explains the Manties' reluctance to raise fees to offset the massive losses. Have they never raised the fees on the junction in it's long history? Were there repercussions of wars or rumors of wars if they ever did not ever would? Perhaps there was a promise never to raise the fees of the MWJ.

The WHJ lost a lot of its activity and revenue. And some of mankind throughout the galaxy is cut off from trade with each other. It's like God confounding the tongues of mankind and scattering the tribes. I suppose the SL and the Haven sector no longer speak the same language either.

Manticore actually did raise the Wormhole rates several times on the junction during the wars, and it was hotly debated in universe when they did so. Perhaps you are misinterpreting what the author was meaning.

cthia wrote:The author was a bit annoyed when I suggested that Manticore would and should raise the fees to use the MWJ to offset the massive losses occurred from the historically consistent method of draining the coffer. War.

I don't quite understand his annoyance with the idea. I wonder if there is something in HoS which explains the Manties' reluctance to raise fees to offset the massive losses. Have they never raised the fees on the junction in it's long history? Were there repercussions of wars or rumors of wars if they ever did not ever would? Perhaps there was a promise never to raise the fees of the MWJ.

The WHJ lost a lot of its activity and revenue. And some of mankind throughout the galaxy is cut off from trade with each other. It's like God confounding the tongues of mankind and scattering the tribes. I suppose the SL and the Haven sector no longer speak the same language either.

There's a hard limit to how high transit fees can get. That number has to be based on the costs of sending a freighter to its destination without using the wormhole. Eg. Manticore-Gregor is the shortest known bridge at 180LY. For a delta-band merchantman, that's about 65 days of voyaging.

It's not the end of the calculation - a merchantman on a 200LY voyage could stop at multiple systems before their 'final' destination - but it does mean that most wormhole owners can probably get away with charging the equivalent of one-sixth of a freighter's annual operating costs per transit. One-twelfth or twentieth is quite reasonable.

I don't see a reason to charge foreign shippers any less by default. As extortionate as that could seem, it's still cheaper than the equivalent hyperspace journey. Just like the real world, if you don't want to pay Suez or Panama's fees, you're forced to circumnavigate entire continents.

Of course, this does not apply to domestic shippers and favoured allies or quid-pro-quo arrangements between owners of different wormholes, because cheaper fees there encourages growth of their internal industries and economies.

munroburton wrote:There's a hard limit to how high transit fees can get. That number has to be based on the costs of sending a freighter to its destination without using the wormhole. Eg. Manticore-Gregor is the shortest known bridge at 180LY. For a delta-band merchantman, that's about 65 days of voyaging.

It's not the end of the calculation - a merchantman on a 200LY voyage could stop at multiple systems before their 'final' destination - but it does mean that most wormhole owners can probably get away with charging the equivalent of one-sixth of a freighter's annual operating costs per transit. One-twelfth or twentieth is quite reasonable.

I don't see a reason to charge foreign shippers any less by default. As extortionate as that could seem, it's still cheaper than the equivalent hyperspace journey. Just like the real world, if you don't want to pay Suez or Panama's fees, you're forced to circumnavigate entire continents.

Of course, this does not apply to domestic shippers and favoured allies or quid-pro-quo arrangements between owners of different wormholes, because cheaper fees there encourages growth of their internal industries and economies.

I agree there's a hard limit - but you might have been too simplistic in calculating it.

By using the wormhole to save 65 days not only saves the owner 65 days of loan payments, salary, maintenance, etc. but using the wormhole consistently also generates revenue more frequently. Cutting the average trip duration in half should double the annual revenue a ship can generate.

And so a shipping line judging the point where a wormhole transit becomes unaffordable must be balancing the fees incurred against a combination of both their cost savings and their additional revenue possible per year.

Of course not all trade routes get equal benefit from the wormhole, so climbing fee will choke off some routes before others.

Jonathan_S wrote:By using the wormhole to save 65 days not only saves the owner 65 days of loan payments, salary, maintenance, etc. but using the wormhole consistently also generates revenue more frequently. Cutting the average trip duration in half should double the annual revenue a ship can generate.

But the time saved could mean the ship goes elsewhere instead, so cutting time in half does not mean double number of transits. That would apply only to two-point trips, but we know very well that triangle routes exist and nothing stops there being more complex shapes.

Then again... the one triangle route we know of takes a merchant ship twice through the wormhole: Manticore to Gregor to Silesia to Basilisk.

With over 300 T-years of experience, I'm sure the Junction Authority has very complex spreadsheets to calculate all of this. Which of course the politicians probably ignore.

Jonathan_S wrote:

munroburton wrote:There's a hard limit to how high transit fees can get. That number has to be based on the costs of sending a freighter to its destination without using the wormhole. Eg. Manticore-Gregor is the shortest known bridge at 180LY. For a delta-band merchantman, that's about 65 days of voyaging.

It's not the end of the calculation - a merchantman on a 200LY voyage could stop at multiple systems before their 'final' destination - but it does mean that most wormhole owners can probably get away with charging the equivalent of one-sixth of a freighter's annual operating costs per transit. One-twelfth or twentieth is quite reasonable.

I don't see a reason to charge foreign shippers any less by default. As extortionate as that could seem, it's still cheaper than the equivalent hyperspace journey. Just like the real world, if you don't want to pay Suez or Panama's fees, you're forced to circumnavigate entire continents.

Of course, this does not apply to domestic shippers and favoured allies or quid-pro-quo arrangements between owners of different wormholes, because cheaper fees there encourages growth of their internal industries and economies.

I agree there's a hard limit - but you might have been too simplistic in calculating it.

By using the wormhole to save 65 days not only saves the owner 65 days of loan payments, salary, maintenance, etc. but using the wormhole consistently also generates revenue more frequently. Cutting the average trip duration in half should double the annual revenue a ship can generate.

And so a shipping line judging the point where a wormhole transit becomes unaffordable must be balancing the fees incurred against a combination of both their cost savings and their additional revenue possible per year.

Of course not all trade routes get equal benefit from the wormhole, so climbing fee will choke off some routes before others.

And there are also lines with transshipping agreements with Manty lines. Less time critical shipments will find themselves transhipped at warehouses and moved from one terminus warehouse to another - to be picked up by another freighter from the main line to continue its route. (side question, how many Manty freighters made their living, never leaving manty controlled space, just moving from 1 terminus to another, transferring 3rd party cargo?)

Jonathan_S wrote:

munroburton wrote:There's a hard limit to how high transit fees can get. That number has to be based on the costs of sending a freighter to its destination without using the wormhole. Eg. Manticore-Gregor is the shortest known bridge at 180LY. For a delta-band merchantman, that's about 65 days of voyaging.

It's not the end of the calculation - a merchantman on a 200LY voyage could stop at multiple systems before their 'final' destination - but it does mean that most wormhole owners can probably get away with charging the equivalent of one-sixth of a freighter's annual operating costs per transit. One-twelfth or twentieth is quite reasonable.

I don't see a reason to charge foreign shippers any less by default. As extortionate as that could seem, it's still cheaper than the equivalent hyperspace journey. Just like the real world, if you don't want to pay Suez or Panama's fees, you're forced to circumnavigate entire continents.

Of course, this does not apply to domestic shippers and favoured allies or quid-pro-quo arrangements between owners of different wormholes, because cheaper fees there encourages growth of their internal industries and economies.

I agree there's a hard limit - but you might have been too simplistic in calculating it.

By using the wormhole to save 65 days not only saves the owner 65 days of loan payments, salary, maintenance, etc. but using the wormhole consistently also generates revenue more frequently. Cutting the average trip duration in half should double the annual revenue a ship can generate.

And so a shipping line judging the point where a wormhole transit becomes unaffordable must be balancing the fees incurred against a combination of both their cost savings and their additional revenue possible per year.

Of course not all trade routes get equal benefit from the wormhole, so climbing fee will choke off some routes before others.

Theemile wrote:And there are also lines with transshipping agreements with Manty lines. Less time critical shipments will find themselves transhipped at warehouses and moved from one terminus warehouse to another - to be picked up by another freighter from the main line to continue its route. (side question, how many Manty freighters made their living, never leaving manty controlled space, just moving from 1 terminus to another, transferring 3rd party cargo?)

Although I have no answer, I considered that too. It is akin to local and long distance truckers.

Other hidden costs is insurance. Insurance has to be higher going out of the way on the back roads where pirates and engine trouble can leave you stranded or dead than when traveling via the well traveled well lit junctions. Insurance will also be higher for certain goods, making insurance itself prohibit the choice of route. Some insurance companies may fail to ensure certain routes or a deviation of routes.

On that note, Manticore escorts it's critical freight. Military escorts are an added cost to the bottom line. I don't suppose a naval escort is free, although I've always wondered about it. Anyone know? Also, how far along waypoints can a naval unit escort a freighter? Surely you can't show up in everyone's system towing an Armada.

cthia wrote:
On that note, Manticore escorts it's critical freight. Military escorts are an added cost to the bottom line. I don't suppose a naval escort is free, although I've always wondered about it. Anyone know? Also, how far along waypoints can a naval unit escort a freighter? Surely you can't show up in everyone's system towing an Armada.

Manty military escorts, when and where available, are tax payer funded. But you are at the mercy of their schedule for the escort and are not available for you to simply schedule at a whim. If they are required, THEY make the schedule.

Theemile wrote:And there are also lines with transshipping agreements with Manty lines. Less time critical shipments will find themselves transhipped at warehouses and moved from one terminus warehouse to another - to be picked up by another freighter from the main line to continue its route. (side question, how many Manty freighters made their living, never leaving manty controlled space, just moving from 1 terminus to another, transferring 3rd party cargo?)

Probably quite a lot. We're told that over half the freight in the League is carried for some part of it's journey by a Manticoran hull - though they don't make up the majority of freighters in that space. That implies that they only carry most of that cargo for a limited segment of its entire journey.

And the most logical segment to put a cargo on Manticoran hulls would be along the wormhole network; where Manticoran flagged ships get reduced transit fees compared to foreign ships.

There may be entire shipping lines that specialize in doing nothing more than shuttling freight through the Junction.