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Alexrod

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Re: Axelrod
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Mon May 11, 2020 7:04 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:My guess is that they measured the Resonance Zone. We know it's a shortened cone with a base on the primary's hyperlimit and tip at the wormhole's hyperlimit. So if you can measure the existence of the RZ, you know there's a wormhole. If you can determine three points not in a line on the edge of the RZ, you can calculate the geometry of the RZ and estimate how far the wormhole is. At 12 light-hours, Axelrod would indeed conclude it was important.

The RZ isn't a shortened cone, it's a vastly elongated one. 12 light hours tall and only ~20 light minutes across at the base.

Plus, in a past topic where rfc himself chimed in, the existence of a resonance zone is not by itself proof positive that a wormhole exists in that RZ. The majority of RZss found end up being duds as far as wormholes are concerned.

You could well be correct that the sheer size and power of Manticore's RZ was evidence in favor of there being a wormhole to discover, but the fact that a RZ existed is not by itself sufficient evidence.
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Re: Axelrod
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon May 11, 2020 9:42 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote:The RZ isn't a shortened cone, it's a vastly elongated one. 12 light hours tall and only ~20 light minutes across at the base.


That's a matter of perspective :-)

By shortened, I meant that it doesn't end on a point, but on a circle of radius equal to (and coinciding with) the wormhole's hyperlimit. You could also describe it as a cylinder where the two bases have different radii. I don't know what this 3D shape is called.

Plus, in a past topic where rfc himself chimed in, the existence of a resonance zone is not by itself proof positive that a wormhole exists in that RZ. The majority of RZss found end up being duds as far as wormholes are concerned.

You could well be correct that the sheer size and power of Manticore's RZ was evidence in favor of there being a wormhole to discover, but the fact that a RZ existed is not by itself sufficient evidence.


Ah, interesting. This hasn't come up in the books. I wonder what else can create an RZ if not a wormhole. Still, it's actually required for the story that there RZs exist without wormholes.

At All Costs, Ch. 62 wrote:Any translation out of the resonance zone risked serious astrogational uncertainty, and any translation into the zone would have been no more than a complicated way to commit suicide.


And to confirm which direction RFC meant by "into" and "out of":
At All Costs, Ch. 68 wrote:“Hyper footprint!” Spiropoulo said suddenly. “Multiple hyper footprints at seven-two-point niner three million kilometers!”
***
Honor Alexander-Harrington's eyes were brown as ice as Theophile Kgari, in a virtuoso display of astrogation, dropped the massed superdreadnoughts of Eighth Fleet exactly where she'd told him to in a single jump out of the center of the resonance zone.


Later in the chapter, Tourville's officers say that the 60-missile pattern Honor had fired was coming from outside the zone. So Honor arrived in normal space outside the zone and she hypered out of the wormhole inside it. That concludes that translating from alpha to normal space in the zone is "into".

So it's quite impossible that no one had noticed that the RZ existed, when translating from hyper back to normal space in just under half the surface of the hyper limit is suicide. Within a couple of years of the Manticore Trust frigates arriving in-system, they'd have mapped the RZ thoroughly. And that's if the Warshawskis can't detect them from Alpha in the first place.

But it is a necessary condition for a wormhole being there, isn't it? So if you know the RZ is there and you know its geometry, then you can say "if there's a wormhole, it's that way and this far." Why wouldn't Manticore have sent someone to investigate in the 100 T-years since the Jason arrived if there was a WH there?

Either RZs are so common (almost every system has one anyway) that they figured that there probably wasn't a wormhole, or it was too expensive / difficult to know for certain and Manticore didn't want to spend the money. I don't think it can be either alone, as that ought to have been factored in tactical planning before (you can only attack systems from one side) on one hand, and it's unlikely the Axelrod freighter could have come to a conclusive answer in the amount of time they were in-system if it was too difficult.
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Re: Axelrod
Post by tlb   » Mon May 11, 2020 10:00 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:By shortened, I meant that it doesn't end on a point, but on a circle of radius equal to (and coinciding with) the wormhole's hyperlimit. You could also describe it as a cylinder where the two bases have different radii. I don't know what this 3D shape is called.

That is a truncated cone. A fustrum is a more general solid that is the portion of a cone or pyramid which remains after its upper part has been cut off by a plane parallel to its base, or which is intercepted between two such planes.
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Re: Alexrod
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue May 12, 2020 2:19 am

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It would be interesting to know the ratio of wormholes/termini in systems with one primary to those which are in binary systems.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
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Re: Axelrod
Post by cthia   » Tue May 12, 2020 5:16 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Now that we have come full circle, why didn't the SL follow up on taking the MWJ? Surely the young Star Kingdom couldn't have stood up to them at the time.


We're waiting for David Weber, Tom Pope and Timothy Zahn to tell us. Coming to your preferred book store, A Call to Insurrection or whatever name they settle on.


munroburton wrote:We've already been told, really. The League's Constitution did not permit such actions. Nothing happened to provide justification for OFS to move in either - now, if Axelrod had succeeded, that might be different.

I think there are even one or two other known junctions within the League Core which the League doesn't directly control. If they never took these over, why would they bother with one 300 light years beyond their frontier?

What "such actions" did the League Constitution not permit? I was not talking about attacking Manticore. I was talking about claiming a phenomena Manticore didn't even know anything about...well (possibly) not until Axelrod's snafu. There was no existing treaties drawn up concerning termini at the time.

As I said, the League might not have been aware of any strategic value, but certainly knew of the economic value.

I wonder if Axelrod's snatch and grab attempt led to the territorial limits of termini.

At any rate, textev already concludes any found in League space belongs to the League. Which begs the question of how they'd characterize any that led INTO League space. (Economically. Strategically.)

Also, it may not have been well known (at the time) that the mercenary fleet belonged to Axelrod.

The discovery of termini may have been the corrupt rabbit hole that eventually sucked in the morals, scruples and values of the League.*

Termini turned out to be gold mines, and certainly could have been the catalyst that ignited the League's foray into corruption. That, or the ultimate battle over who owned them. Axelrod started the first Gold Rush with their mountain of data.

*A Descent into the Maelstrom.
EDGAR A. POE WAS AHEAD OF HIS TIME.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Axelrod
Post by munroburton   » Tue May 12, 2020 7:23 am

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cthia wrote:
munroburton wrote:We've already been told, really. The League's Constitution did not permit such actions. Nothing happened to provide justification for OFS to move in either - now, if Axelrod had succeeded, that might be different.

I think there are even one or two other known junctions within the League Core which the League doesn't directly control. If they never took these over, why would they bother with one 300 light years beyond their frontier?

What "such actions" did the League Constitution not permit? I was not talking about attacking Manticore. I was talking about claiming a phenomena Manticore didn't even know anything about...well (possibly) not until Axelrod's snafu. There was no existing treaties drawn up concerning termini at the time.

As I said, the League might not have been aware of any strategic value, but certainly knew of the economic value.

I wonder if Axelrod's snatch and grab attempt led to the territorial limits of termini.

At any rate, textev already concludes any found in League space belongs to the League. Which begs the question of how they'd characterize any that led INTO League space. (Economically. Strategically.)

Also, it may not have been well known (at the time) that the mercenary fleet belonged Axelrod.

The discovery of termini may have been the corrupt rabbit hole that eventually sucked in the morals, scruples and values of the League.*

Termini turned out to be gold mines, and certainly could have been the catalyst that ignited the League's foray into corruption. That, or the ultimate battle over who owned them. Axelrod started the first Gold Rush with their mountain of data.

*A Descent into the Maelstrom.
EDGAR A. POE WAS AHEAD OF HIS TIME.


Claiming/seizing the Manticoran wormhole. For one, in no way could it have been described as being in "League space" regardless of who found it. As for pre-existing treaties:

https://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/e ... ton/323/1/

One is the 12-hour limit — that is, a sphere six light hours [radius, -Ed.], centered on the star. This is the volume in which a star system claims sovereignty: any natural resources, habitats, wormholes, etc., within that sphere legally "belong" to the system in question. There is a caveat to this, in that various admiralty courts have held that to exercise that claim, the star system in question must hold "a tangible, genuine police power" throughout the volume. That is, if your star nation isn't capable of at least patrolling the volume (LACs will do for this purpose), then you have no recourse in interstellar court against someone else who exploits a resource or establishes a habitat in that region. You can issue all the injunctions you want domestically, but you cannot file charges in the courts of the star nation to which the violator belongs or in any of the recognized interstellar courts (actually arbitration panels more than anything else) unless you can demonstrate that you have the power to police/patrol the volume yourself. Once you acquire that power, your claim to anything within that volume becomes paramount.


The League would have recognised that Manticore, with its battlecruiser-strength navy, could demonstrate that "tangible, genuine police power" beyond all reasonable doubt.

Wormholes beyond the 12-hour limit may be legally claimed by anyone, but the "home court" advantage usually means they end up belonging to the star systems associated with them. Wormholes within the 12-hour limit come under the provisions of the limit. Technically, the MWJ lies outside the limit, which is one reason it's as heavily fortified and picketed as it is. The right of freedom of passage does not apply to wormhole junctions, which is yet another source of friction between the SEM and SL. The Sollies have been arguing for the last seventy years or so that freedom of passage ought to be applied to wormholes; the Manties have held to the original interpretation that it does not. The Sollies find this particularly irritating because a handful of independent star nations with single-terminus wormholes have (a) adopted the traditional interpretation and (b) been in a position (often with Manty assistance) to stand up to Solly demands. (This is what's going on in Zunker's case, for example.) The Solarian position in this regard is not helped by the fact that the League is perfectly prepared to deny free passage through wormholes it controls. In addition, under the traditional (Manty supported) interpretation, there is a 3-LM limit around wormholes in which freedom of passage does not apply. In other words, the same terms and conditions of the 12-LM limit apply within 3 LM of a junction/wormhole terminus.


My conclusion is that the SL actually set up the "traditional" interpretation which effectively conceded the MWJ to Manticore before it was even located. Axelrod was between a rock and a hard place - they couldn't be sure Manticore would even give them a reward and the League's original position put it squarely on Manticore's side.

When the Volsung attack failed, it only underscored Manticore's "police power" more firmly. Solarians would not even begin to argue for a change of rules until ~1850(seventy years before ~1920) - almost three centuries after the Axelrod plot.
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Re: Axelrod
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue May 12, 2020 9:46 am

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munroburton wrote:My conclusion is that the SL actually set up the "traditional" interpretation which effectively conceded the MWJ to Manticore before it was even located. Axelrod was between a rock and a hard place - they couldn't be sure Manticore would even give them a reward and the League's original position put it squarely on Manticore's side.

When the Volsung attack failed, it only underscored Manticore's "police power" more firmly. Solarians would not even begin to argue for a change of rules until ~1850(seventy years before ~1920) - almost three centuries after the Axelrod plot.


The traditional interpretation refers to passage, not ownership. In other words, it doesn't decide who can grant or deny passage. So Axelrod could have grabbed the wormhole itself without owning the system, if the wormhole was found outside the 12-light-hour diameter sphere. Most wormholes are and the geometry of the RZ would also clearly show it is.

The issue here is the "home court" advantage. There's no way that Axelrod could hold a position at the heliopause for any amount of time, with any amount of mercenary or dummy system navy (like Barca) support, against the RMN. The RMN already had, even at the time of the invasion, 10 battlecruisers. They were small by modern standards (in the 200k tonne range), but they were bigger than anything else short of the newly-invented BBs that only Gustav Anderman and the SLN had.

More importantly, logistics: the junction terminus is just over two days' travel from Manticore-A at 150 gravities or 40 hours at 250 G. The RMN can come and go as they please, rearm and resupply literally for an indefinite amount of time. The forces that Axelrod could station on the terminus could not. Particularly before they managed to calculate the transit vectors, but they couldn't be sure of where the other termini would lie. They might find that they led nowhere or led to a system that wouldn't support them. (both conditions were true)
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Re: Alexrod
Post by Captain Golding   » Tue May 12, 2020 10:23 am

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Hmm,
We know where the Junction is to Manticore A in the 1900's timeframe. But the Binary system would be rotating around it's common CoM. Where did Manticore B lie with respect to the WHJ back in the Axelrod timeframe?

The Resonance Zone should have been a Hazard to Navigation as far as Manicore Hyper Space travel is concerned but if traffic levels were low and not scheduled incoming traffic would either miss it or die and never be heard of again. Was the Patrol Service needed because of damaged ships arriving due to transition too near the RZ?

If the recorded loss rate is low Manticore may well not be aware of the RZ - even in Solarian Space Worm Holes are still rare and poorly understood at this point.

So maybe Axelrod was keyed to the chance of a WormHole due to the pattern of shipping accidents and then deployed the expensive and specialist equipment needed to detect the RZ.

Of course back then the League were still very much the good guys, What Axelrod was doing would be considered an Act of Piracy, very undemocratic no matter the Economic potential. Of course the league management would probably have been very pragmatic after the event but the members would still have been ofended. So Axelrod had the contract and expertise to prospect for WH's in League space and their management were sufficently outsidedemocratic control to see the potential outside of League duristriction and go for it.

Note that there should be a RZ at Beowulf as well - weaker perhaps but not detected or explored despite Beowulf having a Tech advantage at that time. IF Axelrod had discovered the Beowulf end first then how would the League have treated Manticore at the root end of that WH?

GSN
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Re: Axelrod
Post by munroburton   » Tue May 12, 2020 11:02 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
munroburton wrote:My conclusion is that the SL actually set up the "traditional" interpretation which effectively conceded the MWJ to Manticore before it was even located. Axelrod was between a rock and a hard place - they couldn't be sure Manticore would even give them a reward and the League's original position put it squarely on Manticore's side.

When the Volsung attack failed, it only underscored Manticore's "police power" more firmly. Solarians would not even begin to argue for a change of rules until ~1850(seventy years before ~1920) - almost three centuries after the Axelrod plot.


The traditional interpretation refers to passage, not ownership. In other words, it doesn't decide who can grant or deny passage. So Axelrod could have grabbed the wormhole itself without owning the system, if the wormhole was found outside the 12-light-hour diameter sphere. Most wormholes are and the geometry of the RZ would also clearly show it is.

The issue here is the "home court" advantage. There's no way that Axelrod could hold a position at the heliopause for any amount of time, with any amount of mercenary or dummy system navy (like Barca) support, against the RMN. The RMN already had, even at the time of the invasion, 10 battlecruisers. They were small by modern standards (in the 200k tonne range), but they were bigger than anything else short of the newly-invented BBs that only Gustav Anderman and the SLN had.

More importantly, logistics: the junction terminus is just over two days' travel from Manticore-A at 150 gravities or 40 hours at 250 G. The RMN can come and go as they please, rearm and resupply literally for an indefinite amount of time. The forces that Axelrod could station on the terminus could not. Particularly before they managed to calculate the transit vectors, but they couldn't be sure of where the other termini would lie. They might find that they led nowhere or led to a system that wouldn't support them. (both conditions were true)


You're right about it referring to passage rather than ownership. Nevertheless...

The other is the 12-minute limit — that is a sphere defined as extending 12 light-minutes beyond the star's hyper limit (or up to around 35-40 light-minutes from the primary. This is the zone in which freedom of passage is not a common right. Warships of another star nation, for example, may not cross the 12-minute limit without identifying themselves and requesting right of passage (the SLN frequently ignores this provision, by the way). All commercial/private ships become subject to inspection, traffic laws, commercial law, taxes, etc. Critical industrial facilities, population centers, etc., are normally located within the 12-minute limit for reasons of military security, and "crossing the limit" without identifying one's self is a violation of international law for a merchant vessel and an act of war by a warship. This may be thought of as the 12-mile limit recognized by the 1982 UN Convention on Law of the Sea, again applied to star systems.

In addition, under the traditional (Manty supported) interpretation, there is a 3-LM limit around wormholes in which freedom of passage does not apply. In other words, the same terms and conditions of the 12-LM limit apply within 3 LM of a junction/wormhole terminus.


There's a reference in there about the SLN frequently ignoring this. I take that to mean within the past 70 years or so.

The addition of the 3-LM wormhole limit to the other two had to occur at a time when the League existed, perhaps ironically to protect the League's own wormholes. It's not unreasonable to conclude that the League itself had a part to play in setting that and in doing so, reconfirmed a commitment to respecting the first two, before its slide into moral degeneracy began.

Putting all those pieces together, I just don't see the ~1550pd League being able to justify to itself the outright conquest of a prosperous star system which had just proven it could defend itself, had a track record of keeping pirates out of the local region and had never committed a hostile act against the League.
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Re: Alexrod
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue May 12, 2020 1:26 pm

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Captain Golding wrote:Hmm,
We know where the Junction is to Manticore A in the 1900's timeframe. But the Binary system would be rotating around it's common CoM. Where did Manticore B lie with respect to the WHJ back in the Axelrod timeframe?


It's not established how that particular dance happens. AAC Ch. 62 does talk about how Manticore-B's position now and in the next couple of centuries in relation to the RZ dictated the deployment of the Home Fleet, but does not go into detail into what actually happens. It's possible the RZ is always associated with Manticore-A. The diagram from the Wiki shows the Junction much closer to the A component than B. It doesn't give the distances between the two components, so if anyone can find it, we can do some calculations. I think did it in the past, in some thread.

Note: the diagram can't be right: it shows the junction approx. 3 by 10 grid positions from Manticore-A. That would be about 10.5 grid widths in linear distance, or 210 light-minutes with the scale provided. We know the junction is 600 light-minutes away. The calculated distance between A and b is 13-by-9, which gives 316 light minutes. That's not sufficient to accommodate the outermost planets (Wyvern, 157 LM and Fenris, 255 LM) without intersecting orbits. (This link says in the majority of binary systems, the ecliptic planes should match)

The Resonance Zone should have been a Hazard to Navigation as far as Manicore Hyper Space travel is concerned but if traffic levels were low and not scheduled incoming traffic would either miss it or die and never be heard of again. Was the Patrol Service needed because of damaged ships arriving due to transition too near the RZ?

If the recorded loss rate is low Manticore may well not be aware of the RZ - even in Solarian Space Worm Holes are still rare and poorly understood at this point.


I find that hard to believe. Despite the diagram being out of scale, it does show what would happen around the hyperlimit: just under half of the surface of the hyperlimit is inside the RZ, which means it would have been noticed. Preferential arrival positions cannot explain this, since ships would translate from hyperspace back to normal space as close as possible to their normal-space destination. In Travis' time, it is said the system received about one ship a month, so they'd notice that no one arrived 9 out of 18 months of the year.

Note that there should be a RZ at Beowulf as well - weaker perhaps but not detected or explored despite Beowulf having a Tech advantage at that time. IF Axelrod had discovered the Beowulf end first then how would the League have treated Manticore at the root end of that WH?


That is a very good point!

At All Costs, Ch. 62 wrote:Any wormhole terminus associated with a star formed a conical volume in hyper, with the wormhole at its apex and a base centered on on the star and twice as wide as its hyper limit, in which hyper-space astrogation became less than totally reliable.


Beowulf had been settled since 100 PD, though no one would have noticed the RZ until some time between 753 and 800 PD, which is when Beowulf would have performed the first hyper translation. Still, that's 800 T-years to note that the RZ was there, so like Manticore, I'd say they certainly knew it was there.
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