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State Sec in RHN

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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by tlb   » Mon Apr 27, 2020 1:48 pm

tlb
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cthia wrote:Are you kidding me? Every one of those idiots should be drummed out of the Navy, or kept if they showed a knack for WALKING THE PLANK!

Dauntless wrote:as shown in "the Fanatic" I think it was, (the one where Victor has to deal single-handed with a fleet commanded by Admiral Chin), not all State Sec were psychotic, mindless killing machines.

a great many yes but not all, so you need to have someone like Kevin Usher work out who is worth redeeming and who is a waste of oxygen. Those he says are trust worthy you transfer to Fleet or Marines or shipyard as they prefer; the rest can be quietly put out the airlock.

It mentions somewhere in the books that the thugs in StateSec managed to get themselves assigned to things like prison duty; so there are areas of StateSec that need to be checked VERY carefully, as opposed to just carefully. But a blanket condemnation of StateSec personnel would be very wrong; just consider Eloise Pritchart (President of the Republic of Haven), Denis LePic (Attorney General) and Victor Cachet.

Some of that selection has already been done by those that chose to either fight or flee the Republic of Haven.
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 27, 2020 2:12 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Fox2! wrote:How many, if any, State Sec naval force survivors were allowed to join the "new" Republic of Haven Navy? Not those who crewed or commanded ships or larger formations that went rogue. Personnel from ships that declared their support of the new government promptly after the coup.

I don't recall anything specifically in the books.

I doubt any were allowed to remain together as a crew. But broken up and spread around the fleet? Wouldn't surprise me if some were . You'd need some kind of investigation to make sure they hadn't been complicit in atrocities against anybody, and as best you can that they'd be loyal to the restored constitution.

OTOH State Sec didn't have all that many naval forces (especially not after Shannon's little oops) - so Thiesman or Pritchart may have decided it was more expedient to make a clean break with the Peeps, and bar any former State Sec personnel from the Republic of Haven's armed forces.


I would also assume that there might have been some combat when Theisman overthrew Saint Just as well as the following series of mini wars that Haven had to fight. I doubt many State Sec ships or troops are left over, those in Haven were destroyed, what was left over was dismantled and dispersed. If found guilty of any crimes they go to prison otherwise out. Most of the most fanatical Statesec and People's navy either rebelled against the Republic after the overthrow or just simply disappeared into the People's Navy in Exile or maybe a dozen other organizations. Chances are also that a lot of open combat between People's Navy and State Sec happened when news of the Saint Just downfall came. I doubt after all that there would be many State Sec Naval Forces, and most of the remaining Statesec ground forces would be disbanded, senior officers in prison, anyone complicit in crimes in prison and the rest might be distributed within the Army and MArines under strict supervision.
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by cthia   » Mon Apr 27, 2020 6:52 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Are you kidding me? Every one of those idiots should be drummed out of the Navy, or kept if they showed a knack for WALKING THE PLANK!


But how do you find out which ones are idiots and which ones are actually good ones that the idiots kept down?

And you can't simply show the outside of an airlock to all StateSec commissioners without some vetting. Just think of this one previous commissioner: Eloise Pritchart.

There were good commissioners, no doubt. But for the most part, I'd think pulling pork from that pool is asking for it.

The good ones should already have vetted themselves. Theisman and Co., already had a good idea who could be trusted.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 27, 2020 7:07 pm

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cthia wrote:There were good commissioners, no doubt. But for the most part, I'd think pulling pork from that pool is asking for it.

The good ones should already have vetted themselves. Theisman and Co., already had a good idea who could be trusted.

For the people's commissioners, if the navy personell they "commanded" didn't want them dead by the end of the reign of Saint Just that would be kind of like "hey this guy can be rehabilitated".
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by cthia   » Fri May 01, 2020 11:13 am

cthia
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Sigs wrote:
cthia wrote:There were good commissioners, no doubt. But for the most part, I'd think pulling pork from that pool is asking for it.

The good ones should already have vetted themselves. Theisman and Co., already had a good idea who could be trusted.

For the people's commissioners, if the navy personell they "commanded" didn't want them dead by the end of the reign of Saint Just that would be kind of like "hey this guy can be rehabilitated".

I agree the input of the officers they commanded should be valued. That is why I said the ones who are trustworthy have already vetted themselves in their actions. But, pulling pork from the rest of that pigsty just isn't worth it. Everyone simply can't be rehabilitated. I imagine it'd be like trying to rehabilitate Hitler.

If I were amongst the doomed in question, I'd seek refuge on Grayson (though personally I wouldn't wish them on Grayson). Or, if I were amongst those handing out their sentence it'd be "Masada or death," although I agree that both of those may be synonymous.

That pool of pork would be the first ones to organize a coup, or support one. They'd be ripe for some malignant entity to recruit them for their own nefarious plans.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by tlb   » Fri May 01, 2020 11:45 am

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cthia wrote:If I were amongst the doomed in question, I'd seek refuge on Grayson (though personally I wouldn't wish them on Grayson).

Why would Grayson accept them? Why choose Grayson, when we know that Mesa has already accepted the People's Navy in Exile?
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri May 01, 2020 7:02 pm

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cthia wrote:Everyone simply can't be rehabilitated. I imagine it'd be like trying to rehabilitate Hitler.


Rehabilitating the SS?
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by cthia   » Fri May 01, 2020 7:36 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:If I were amongst the doomed in question, I'd seek refuge on Grayson (though personally I wouldn't wish them on Grayson).

Why would Grayson accept them? Why choose Grayson, when we know that Mesa has already accepted the People's Navy in Exile?

Mesa isn't the place for them if there's any hope for rehabilitation. They'll get deeper into excrement on Mesa. In fact, dollars to donuts the RF will have ex-Peeps in their navy.

Grayson, because Tester is forgiving. And there are ex-Peeps to help smooth the transition..

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by cthia   » Fri May 01, 2020 7:40 pm

cthia
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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:Everyone simply can't be rehabilitated. I imagine it'd be like trying to rehabilitate Hitler.


Rehabilitating the SS?

Rehabilitating StateSec?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: State Sec in RHN
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri May 01, 2020 8:01 pm

ThinksMarkedly
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cthia wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:Rehabilitating the SS?

Rehabilitating StateSec?


That's not the "SS" I was thinking of when the reference was Hitler.
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