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GA-League War

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GA-League War
Post by Sigs   » Mon Apr 20, 2020 11:17 pm

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Throughout the last few books the war between the SLN and the GA unfolded but due to overwhelming technological superiority of the RMN/GSN and even the RHN it was very clear who would win the war. but there were only using 1914 technology.
The situation is as follows:
The war unfolds as it does in the books, timeline is the same but they are only using technology up to 1914. The Alignment determines that they are not ready to pull the trigger and as such go deep underground before OB, Beowulf Strike etc… thing is the League is already leaning into the war and through simple stupidity and bureaucratic inertia it cannot stop itself short of war. The SLN hits a point of no return where the League cannot get peace from the GA that is acceptable to them.

The GA’s Order of Battle is as follows:
100 SD(P)
1,300 SD
120 CLAC
485 BC
428 CA
557 CL
774 DD
Again this fleet is composed of ships that were around in 1914(Harrington/Medusa) LAC’s(Shrike) and all SD(P)’s and CLACs are concentrated in RMN/GSN. All the SD(P)s and CLACs are built and new once are being laid down but they wont be in service for at least 24 months out of Manticoran and Grayson yards and 36-48 months out of Havenite/Andermani yards for SD(P)’s and 24-36 months for CLAC’s. There are no Rolands, Sag-C’s, BC(L)’s/BC(P)’s Katana’s and Apollo etc… those technologies/designs are not researched and built yet but the GA continues on their research.

Industrial situation same as the books except for the MA attacks as those don’t happen so Manticore and Grayson have all their industry intact.

Politically the GA comprises of the Andermani, Beowulf, Star Empire of Manticore, Grayson, Haven and most of the former junior Manticore alliance members.


Situation for the League:

SLN
2,300 SD
4,000 BC
1,000 CA
2,500 CL
2,000 DD

The 8,000 SD/DN in the reserve with unknown number of light ships are not a factor because the League still doesn’t have the capability to mobilize more then a few hundred of those ships within a year and also the fact that a good portion of them are obsolete even by SLN standards.

When we consider that the SEM’s industry is intact as is Grayson and Haven has their industry intact plus Bolthole as well as whatever industry the Andermani and Beowulf bring. How does this war playout? In the books the technological superiority is overwhelming where numerically equal opponents(BoM2) have tremendous disparity in firepower.

Now the GA’s SD’s are superior to those of the SLN wether they be RHN, GSN, IAN, BSDF or RMN.The Harringtons/ Medusa’s represent a lot of firepower but are limited in number and again all that there is for at least 2 years.

Eventually all the technology of the books comes into fruition but that is 6-7 years down the line for most of the big once.

Numerically the SLN still has the advantage but technologically the GA has the advantage which means that the fleets would be close to parity or at least significantly closer then they were in the books. The GA industry and population are geared for war and used to war for the last couple of decades whereas the League has not fought a war in few centuries and never against a multi-system enemy like the GA. While the GA still faces the problem of a nation with over 1,700 member systems that they don’t want to piss off long term.


You are in charge of the Strategy of the Grand Alliance military, diplomatic and economic/industrial. You get to make the decisions, so how would you organize the Grand Alliance military to both defend the Alliance territory and bring the war to the League and also organize the industry to build the necessary ships for the war long term.

Long term goals are lasting peace and security from retaliation by an overwhelming SLN decades down the road. Meaning that the League is small enough that it cannot out build the GA 20 to 1 a couple of dacades down the line.


Or

You are in charge of the Strategy of the League both military and economic/industrial. You get to make the decisions, so how would you re-organize/restructure the SLN to both defend the League territory and protectorates and bring the war to the GA and also organize the industry to build the necessary ships for the war long term. When I say reorganize/restructure I mean decide structure but also staffing problems(bloated CoC, incompetent senior officers, divide between BF and FF) keep in mind the solution has to be realistic( cant just fire everyone above the rank of captain at once, has to be a realistic progression)
Goal for the League is obviously survival and eventual defeat of the GA.



For both sides what would your strategy be for the Verge/protectorates to either utilize them in the war and/or for the GA help them so that they can bolster the alliance industry, economy and military 50 years down the line to prevent a League rising bent on revenge decades down the line.
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Re: GA-League War
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Apr 21, 2020 8:04 am

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Sigs wrote:Throughout the last few books the war between the SLN and the GA unfolded but due to overwhelming technological superiority of the RMN/GSN and even the RHN it was very clear who would win the war. but there were only using 1914 technology.
The situation is as follows:
The war unfolds as it does in the books, timeline is the same but they are only using technology up to 1914. The Alignment determines that they are not ready to pull the trigger and as such go deep underground before OB, Beowulf Strike etc… thing is the League is already leaning into the war and through simple stupidity and bureaucratic inertia it cannot stop itself short of war. The SLN hits a point of no return where the League cannot get peace from the GA that is acceptable to them.

The GA’s Order of Battle is as follows:
100 SD(P)
1,300 SD
120 CLAC
485 BC
428 CA
557 CL
774 DD
Again this fleet is composed of ships that were around in 1914(Harrington/Medusa) LAC’s(Shrike) and all SD(P)’s and CLACs are concentrated in RMN/GSN. All the SD(P)s and CLACs are built and new once are being laid down but they wont be in service for at least 24 months out of Manticoran and Grayson yards and 36-48 months out of Havenite/Andermani yards for SD(P)’s and 24-36 months for CLAC’s. There are no Rolands, Sag-C’s, BC(L)’s/BC(P)’s Katana’s and Apollo etc… those technologies/designs are not researched and built yet but the GA continues on their research.

Industrial situation same as the books except for the MA attacks as those don’t happen so Manticore and Grayson have all their industry intact.

Politically the GA comprises of the Andermani, Beowulf, Star Empire of Manticore, Grayson, Haven and most of the former junior Manticore alliance members.


Situation for the League:

SLN
2,300 SD
4,000 BC
1,000 CA
2,500 CL
2,000 DD

The 8,000 SD/DN in the reserve with unknown number of light ships are not a factor because the League still doesn’t have the capability to mobilize more then a few hundred of those ships within a year and also the fact that a good portion of them are obsolete even by SLN standards.

When we consider that the SEM’s industry is intact as is Grayson and Haven has their industry intact plus Bolthole as well as whatever industry the Andermani and Beowulf bring. How does this war playout? In the books the technological superiority is overwhelming where numerically equal opponents(BoM2) have tremendous disparity in firepower.

Now the GA’s SD’s are superior to those of the SLN wether they be RHN, GSN, IAN, BSDF or RMN.The Harringtons/ Medusa’s represent a lot of firepower but are limited in number and again all that there is for at least 2 years.

Eventually all the technology of the books comes into fruition but that is 6-7 years down the line for most of the big once.

Numerically the SLN still has the advantage but technologically the GA has the advantage which means that the fleets would be close to parity or at least significantly closer then they were in the books. The GA industry and population are geared for war and used to war for the last couple of decades whereas the League has not fought a war in few centuries and never against a multi-system enemy like the GA. While the GA still faces the problem of a nation with over 1,700 member systems that they don’t want to piss off long term.


You are in charge of the Strategy of the Grand Alliance military, diplomatic and economic/industrial. You get to make the decisions, so how would you organize the Grand Alliance military to both defend the Alliance territory and bring the war to the League and also organize the industry to build the necessary ships for the war long term.

Long term goals are lasting peace and security from retaliation by an overwhelming SLN decades down the road. Meaning that the League is small enough that it cannot out build the GA 20 to 1 a couple of dacades down the line.


Or

You are in charge of the Strategy of the League both military and economic/industrial. You get to make the decisions, so how would you re-organize/restructure the SLN to both defend the League territory and protectorates and bring the war to the GA and also organize the industry to build the necessary ships for the war long term. When I say reorganize/restructure I mean decide structure but also staffing problems(bloated CoC, incompetent senior officers, divide between BF and FF) keep in mind the solution has to be realistic( cant just fire everyone above the rank of captain at once, has to be a realistic progression)
Goal for the League is obviously survival and eventual defeat of the GA.



For both sides what would your strategy be for the Verge/protectorates to either utilize them in the war and/or for the GA help them so that they can bolster the alliance industry, economy and military 50 years down the line to prevent a League rising bent on revenge decades down the line.

Well if its 1914 then Haven and Manticore are still at war, since Buttercup didn't kick off nearly the end of that December. (With Rob Pierre dying during McQeen's failed coup earlier that month). OTOH That means that Ferrit LACs and Shrike-Bs are already in the fleet - since the RMN/GSN have had over a year to make changes based on analyzing the results of 2nd Hancock and Basilisk during Operation Icarus - and the RMN/GSN have a lot of SD(P)s and CLACs than during 1913's Icarus.

Haven and the Andies wouldn't have SD(P)s of their own nor had they figured out MDMs. Since except for Minotaur at Hancock Manticore hadn't used them at all; so I'd also assume that the MAlign hadn't come up with their Cataphracts as partial counters.


Seems to me like the SLN is going to be even less capable of facing that than the Peep fleets were during the historic Buttercup. The SLN's anit-missile defense is worse; they have no experience facing even single pod salvos, and now they're facing missiles in unprecedented volume, from impossible ranges, and at inconceivable speeds. Without the information on pod based combat they wouldn't have started making even the limited attempts to address that, like their Aegis upgrades (for what those are worth); though Halo might still be getting rolled out.

Manticore and Grayson have less systems to defend (no Talbott quadrant) and 8th Fleet is going to go through any SLN formation even quicker than Buttercup historically cut through the utterly outclassed Peep units. About the only question in my mind is whether the missile production lines and supply train can get sufficient missiles to the shooters to keep up.

Sure, Manticore doesn't have Apollo, the Mk16, nor the improved grav lenses for their missiles. But without a Cataphract threat they can close to 20 million km or so where FTL fire control isn't as critical. They won't have Keyhole either, but are unlikely to face the kind of defensive fire where it makes a real difference. The one place they're much weaker is light units, the original Saganami-class CAs are in service, with their bow walls. But the Saganami-Bs with their ERMs are still 3 years away; with BC(P)s, BC(L), Avalon, and Wolfhound even further out. So nothing short of a full up MDM actually outranges SLN missiles. If detachments of light units have some Mk41 MDM pods to tow then at least they get one powerful free hit - but after that the SLN units marginally outrange them. OTOH the missile defense on the RMN/GSN units is still far superior - as is the rate of fire from their tubes. So I'd give maybe a 10 - 20% edge to the RMN/GSN units. But mostly this'll be a battle of wallers.

I would say, with the need to split focus between Haven and the League, that Manticore probably can't afford to take and hold systems - that'd spread their combat power too thin. And legacy units left to secure those are at risk of being overrun by counter-attacks. So they'll probably be forced into deep powerful raids earlier that historic, in order to cripple enemy infrastructure (take out bases and yards to cripple the enemy, and hopefully force their fleets to give battle where they can be destroyed). Or Haven is close enough they might go for broke, bypass its outer fleets, and just immediately send much of 8th fleet straight to Nouveau Paris to punch out the Capital Fleet and defenses and demand surrender; just to take that player off the board and let them refocus on the League.
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Re: GA-League War
Post by Duckk   » Tue Apr 21, 2020 9:12 am

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If detachments of light units have some Mk41 MDM pods to tow then at least they get one powerful free hit - but after that the SLN units marginally outrange them.


I’d point out that the SLN’s current single-drive missile family (Spatha, Javelin, Trebuchet) are new munitions circa 1920. They replace older missiles, of which we only know of the Pilum. So in 1914, the SLN would still be behind in missile technology.
-------------------------
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Re: GA-League War
Post by Sigs   » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:08 am

Sigs
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Posts: 1408
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:09 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:Well if its 1914 then Haven and Manticore are still at war, since Buttercup didn't kick off nearly the end of that December. (With Rob Pierre dying during McQeen's failed coup earlier that month).
Regular timeline with 1914 technology. I want to see how others envision a war between the GA and the League where the war isn't Modern Canadian Army vs The French Army during the Napoleonic Wars. One side outnumbers the other 10 to 1 but the other has everyone armed with an assault Rifle, it has machine guns, tanks, artillery that out ranges the enemies, aircraft, trucks...one side has numbers the other side has a hell of a lot more firepower, mobility, coordination, intelligence gathering, range, speed etc...






Edit:

-The Star Empire of Manticore still exists
-Talbott Quadrant exists and is part of the SEM
-Bolthole exists and is building ships for the RHN just no SD(P)s and CLAC’s
-Committee of Public Safety(Oscar Saint-Just) is over thrown in1915 and it is now 1921.

Situation is that maybe the MA instigated a small fight or one of their plans accidently started a fight which the mandarins took and ran with only seeing $$$$$ when they consider the WH junction and its potential benefits. We are at a point where the League cannot backdown because the GA wont agree to them backing down without breaking up the League and the SLN cannot defeat the GA in the short term so its going to be a long war.

True that the SLN will be just as unprepeared as the RHN was during Buttercup but SD(P)’s represent a small component of the allied wall for the foreseeable future and as such they may make up the offensive arm of the Grand Alliance or at least part of it but we wont have a Squadron of SD(P)’s backed up by some lighter units and LACs wiping out fleets of SD’s.

The question is how do you fight a war when the enemy is significantly bigger then you with more industrial and economic potential without completely and totally enraging everyone of the 1,700 member systems and guaranteeing that at some point in the coming decades they will seek revenge.

On the flipside how do you defend against an enemy with internal lines of communication and movement and one that is so far away from you but has access to the heart of your nation? The SLN has to defend against potential attack from three directions two of which are in League territory or within league space while not being able to hit the enemy territory in any significant force without taking a large portion of their wallers, escorts and fleet train out of commission for months or years thereby weakening their already weak position.
Last edited by Sigs on Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: GA-League War
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:21 am

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Duckk wrote:I’d point out that the SLN’s current single-drive missile family (Spatha, Javelin, Trebuchet) are new munitions circa 1920. They replace older missiles, of which we only know of the Pilum. So in 1914, the SLN would still be behind in missile technology.


But the SLN is not likely to have made anything more than incremental improvements, so the older generation missiles must have had just slightly worse performance than the current ones.
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Re: GA-League War
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Apr 21, 2020 11:58 am

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Duckk wrote:
If detachments of light units have some Mk41 MDM pods to tow then at least they get one powerful free hit - but after that the SLN units marginally outrange them.


I’d point out that the SLN’s current single-drive missile family (Spatha, Javelin, Trebuchet) are new munitions circa 1920. They replace older missiles, of which we only know of the Pilum. So in 1914, the SLN would still be behind in missile technology.

Thanks. I didn't realized they were quite that new.

That might give a slightly greater edge to the RMN/GSN light units; but I was already figuring they had a noticeable (but not utterly decisive edge over the SLN counterparts). Also forgot to mention their acceleration advantage. It's not as crushing as it would become by 1920-21, but a newly built or refit ship of 1914 should have about a 117% the accel compared to a SLN ship of the same size. Also forgot to point out that the GSN units in particular (but also the RMN's new Saganami-class CA) are already following the GSN philosophy of fewer but bigger guns - so a SLN counterpart that managed an energy range duel is also going to be in for an unpleasant surprise.

Still, even with the info that the SLN missiles are inferior I think the RMN/GSN would need to be more careful with their light units than they were in the actual later war with the League.
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Re: GA-League War
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Apr 21, 2020 12:19 pm

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Sigs wrote:-The Star Empire of Manticore still exists
-Talbott Quadrant exists and is part of the SEM
-Bolthole exists and is building ships for the RHN just no SD(P)s and CLAC’s
-Committee of Public Safety(Oscar Saint-Just) is over thrown in1915 and it is now 1921.

Situation is that maybe the MA instigated a small fight or one of their plans accidently started a fight which the mandarins took and ran with only seeing $$$$$ when they consider the WH junction and its potential benefits. We are at a point where the League cannot backdown because the GA wont agree to them backing down without breaking up the League and the SLN cannot defeat the GA in the short term so its going to be a long war.

True that the SLN will be just as unprepeared as the RHN was during Buttercup but SD(P)’s represent a small component of the allied wall for the foreseeable future and as such they may make up the offensive arm of the Grand Alliance or at least part of it but we wont have a Squadron of SD(P)’s backed up by some lighter units and LACs wiping out fleets of SD’s.

The question is how do you fight a war when the enemy is significantly bigger then you with more industrial and economic potential without completely and totally enraging everyone of the 1,700 member systems and guaranteeing that at some point in the coming decades they will seek revenge.

On the flipside how do you defend against an enemy with internal lines of communication and movement and one that is so far away from you but has access to the heart of your nation? The SLN has to defend against potential attack from three directions two of which are in League territory or within league space while not being able to hit the enemy territory in any significant force without taking a large portion of their wallers, escorts and fleet train out of commission for months or years thereby weakening their already weak position.

Okay, its 1920-whatever but ship design and count somehow plateaued at 1914 levels, Oyster Bay never happened, but otherwise the political borders and new alliances are as they otherwise were.

The SD(P)s are still going to be able to crush anything they go up against. But yes, there aren't that many of them, and with this version Manticore still has a lot of Talbott to cover.

However they do have a fair number of LACs and the LACs can still stand up, in numbers, to at least BC level raiders. And against the SLN you don't really need them for anti-missile screens. So you can afford to divert CLACs along with lighter units to provide primary system defenses in Talbot until LAC bases can be built. You'd probably want a nodal reaction force of SD(P)s to backstop them and record any system that Battle Fleet threw SD squadrons at. But as long as you hold the missile range advantage you could manage with a reaction force of older SDs accompanied by ammo ships able to haul around MDM pods for them.

But the Grand Alliance probably can't afford to hang back on the defensive. And attempting something like Lacoon Two would be harder since their light units don't have the individual superiority that the later designs would. So applying economic leverage is harder. I still think the SD(P)s are probably going to have to be used in offensive raids against the SLN's yards. And if they hold the decisive missile range, and ship acceleration, advantages you can use fairly small forces of them to do those strikes. And again, if they can keep out of SLN missile range you could raid with older or smaller ships backed by fast ammo ships carrying MDM pods for the raiders.

But if the SLN fights a cleaner war of it then popular opinion might go hard against the Grand Alliance, and even Haven, Manticore, Andermani, and Grayson can't occupy or hold the entire League demilitarized. So a longer term revanchist tendencies in the League are a major concern. Basically they still appear to be able to kill any force or target they can throw their SD(P)s at. We might get some more even, and therefore more interesting to read, cruiser battles (as long as LACs stay out of it). But MDM pods and SD(P)s make the waller fights pretty darned lopsided.

I still don't see a good way for the SLN to flat out win; not until they have years for R&D to give them the tools, designers to come up with new designs based around them, and yard time to build a critical mass of them. But without massive League missteps (or MAlign simulation of same) I also don't see the war coming to any lasting peace.
The grand alliance can probably bring enough pain to the League to win the war; but it'd very likely be at the cost of losing the peace/the next war.
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Re: GA-League War
Post by Maldorian   » Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:43 am

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Seems to me like the SLN is going to be even less capable of facing that than the Peep fleets were during the historic Buttercup. The SLN's anit-missile defense is worse; they have no experience facing even single pod salvos, and now they're facing missiles in unprecedented volume, from impossible ranges, and at inconceivable speeds. Without the information on pod based combat they wouldn't have started making even the limited attempts to address that, like their Aegis upgrades (for what those are worth); though Halo might still be getting rolled out.


If I remember correct, than is the solarian warfare is even worser than you describe. The solarian ships are as I know pre-Laserwarhead constructions, that means, all that changes that the Laserwarhead made to the way you fight in space are not made to solarian ships.

For example: You can intercept an contact nuke from the begin of your defense perimeter till it hits your hull. A Laser-Warhead detonate far away of the hull, means, you have only the distance between it enters your defense range and the distance it explodes. That reduce the time you have to destroy incomming missles. Navies that noticed the change in warfare because of the Laserwarhead increase their missle defense to compensate it.

Another point is, that contact nukes make more surface damage, like destroy your weapons, what is a good support when you go into Graser range to finish your enemy, but the Laserwarhead has the same deep penetrating ability like the heavy enegy weapons. So, Laserwarheads have the ability to finish an enemy, they are promoted from support to main weapons. Maybe other navies don´t have full trust into the Laserwarhead, but manticore has proved in the war, that missles are the main weapons and energy weapons only backup.

To make it simple: The ships of the solarian league are not designed for missle warfare and no new amonution would change that.
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Re: GA-League War
Post by Theemile   » Wed Apr 22, 2020 7:26 am

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Maldorian wrote:
Seems to me like the SLN is going to be even less capable of facing that than the Peep fleets were during the historic Buttercup. The SLN's anit-missile defense is worse; they have no experience facing even single pod salvos, and now they're facing missiles in unprecedented volume, from impossible ranges, and at inconceivable speeds. Without the information on pod based combat they wouldn't have started making even the limited attempts to address that, like their Aegis upgrades (for what those are worth); though Halo might still be getting rolled out.


If I remember correct, than is the solarian warfare is even worser than you describe. The solarian ships are as I know pre-Laserwarhead constructions, that means, all that changes that the Laserwarhead made to the way you fight in space are not made to solarian ships.

For example: You can intercept an contact nuke from the begin of your defense perimeter till it hits your hull. A Laser-Warhead detonate far away of the hull, means, you have only the distance between it enters your defense range and the distance it explodes. That reduce the time you have to destroy incomming missles. Navies that noticed the change in warfare because of the Laserwarhead increase their missle defense to compensate it.

Another point is, that contact nukes make more surface damage, like destroy your weapons, what is a good support when you go into Graser range to finish your enemy, but the Laserwarhead has the same deep penetrating ability like the heavy enegy weapons. So, Laserwarheads have the ability to finish an enemy, they are promoted from support to main weapons. Maybe other navies don´t have full trust into the Laserwarhead, but manticore has proved in the war, that missles are the main weapons and energy weapons only backup.

To make it simple: The ships of the solarian league are not designed for missle warfare and no new amonution would change that.


One of the reasons out of the loop navies might not trust laserheads is that they have been evolving constantly for >100 years. The original company who developed them for the SLN couldn't produce a warhead which would pierce through a sidewall - so it was rejected by the SLN. They continued to work on the device, and then the Andermani picked it up and developed it further and got a workable device in ~1869. The Manties... "heard about" the technology and completed their version 2 years later, a warhead that would only fit into a capital missile.

As the years progressed, the warhead shrank, the # of individual beams increased, the hitting power increased, and the laserhead's range increased. So someone who examined the tech in 1870 and evaluated a capital missile, which created a handful of DD type laser beams with a standoff range of 10-20,000 KM, would see a weapon that was only mildly effective against Capital ships. Now, in 1920 for front line weapons, that standoff range is better than 50,000 KM, the beams have more power than SD lasers, with 6 emitters in a Cruiser sized warhead and 10 in a Capital version.

So in a time where people have lived 120 years and are still in leadership positions, they would remember the rejected device and that would taint their acceptance of the new one. If their navy could even afford them, that is.
******
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Re: GA-League War
Post by Sigs   » Wed Apr 22, 2020 11:03 am

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Duckk wrote:
I’d point out that the SLN’s current single-drive missile family (Spatha, Javelin, Trebuchet) are new munitions circa 1920. They replace older missiles, of which we only know of the Pilum. So in 1914, the SLN would still be behind in missile technology.

Judging from the books though, would those missiles be revolutionary compared to the predecessors or would they be marginally better or just different from their predecessor. Think Aegis, it was considered revolutionary but in reality it wasn't so revolutionary, it was marginal improvement at best.

I would guess that 1914 tech SLN vs 1914 tech GA would be a hell of a lot closer than 1921 tech SLN vs 1921 tech GA. This would be mainly because the GA member states technological advancement was exponentially better than that of the SLN.
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