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Raoul/Katherine Inheritance

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Raoul/Katherine Inheritance
Post by MC1560   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 12:41 pm

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How do inheritance laws work when it comes to a polygamist marriage?

For example, Honor was the junior wife but her son is the eldest. Emily was the senior wife but her daughter is 2nd born.

So if Katherine has been born first, she would have White Haven and Raoul would get the Duchy and Steading. But due to Raoul being firstborn, he hits the jackpot and gets everything, while Katherine is left out.

Correct?
Last edited by MC1560 on Mon Apr 06, 2020 12:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Polygamy & Inheritance
Post by munroburton   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 4:11 pm

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Yes. Where Manticoran law is concerned, Raoul is White Haven's first child, Katherine is his second and that's it.

As for being left out in the cold, this is the adopted daughter of a multi-millionaire(or is it billionaire now?). She's not gonna be cold, unless she's skiing on Gryphon.
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Re: Polygamy & Inheritance
Post by cthia   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:04 pm

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MC1560 wrote:How do inheritance laws work when it comes to a polygamist marriage?

For example, Honor was the junior wife but her son is the eldest. Emily was the senior wife but her daughter is 2nd born.

So if Katherine has been born first, she would have White Haven and Raoul would get the Duchy and Steading. But due to Raoul being firstborn, he hits the jackpot and gets everything, while Katherine is left.

Correct?

I don't think that's how it works. Raoul would get the title, and MOST of the cash. Not all of it. Katherine would get plenty.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Polygamy & Inheritance
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 5:33 pm

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cthia wrote:
MC1560 wrote:How do inheritance laws work when it comes to a polygamist marriage?

For example, Honor was the junior wife but her son is the eldest. Emily was the senior wife but her daughter is 2nd born.

So if Katherine has been born first, she would have White Haven and Raoul would get the Duchy and Steading. But due to Raoul being firstborn, he hits the jackpot and gets everything, while Katherine is left.

Correct?

I don't think that's how it works. Raoul would get the title, and MOST of the cash. Not all of it. Katherine would get plenty.

The income from the lands associated with the title goes with the title. So while Katherine and her impending sibling might be willed some of the accumulated fortune, the ongoing revenue stream would not be part of it.

We have seen a couple situations where the "cadet" branch of the family has a lesser title bestowed on the heir to the main title, which they gave up and passed to their own heir when they assumed the higher title. It's at least potentially possible that, should Honor and Hamish both shuffle off, Raoul would become Duke and Steadholder Harrington and Katherine would become Countess White Haven.

It's at this point unclear whether Katharine or even her future sibling would be eligible to inherit the Harrington titles. Almost certainly not the Steading, as Grayson law requires an "heir of the body" which Katherine is not and her future sibling is arguably not (Honor may give birth to them, but they will not be hers genetically). Inheritance of the Duchy of Harrington is less clear and will ultimately come down to authorial fiat.
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Re: Polygamy & Inheritance
Post by MC1560   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 6:58 pm

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munroburton wrote:Yes. Where Manticoran law is concerned, Raoul is White Haven's first child, Katherine is his second and that's it.

As for being left out in the cold, this is the adopted daughter of a multi-millionaire(or is it billionaire now?). She's not gonna be cold, unless she's skiing on Gryphon.
For me, it isn't about the money.

In noble society, there's the heir and there's the spares. If Katherine was the firstborn, she and Raoul would both be the heirs (his mother's/her father's). They'd both have seats in the house of lords. They'd be equals.

But since Raoul was firstborn, he'll be "Duke Harrington/Steadholder Harrington/Earl White Haven" while Katherine will be "the sister".

I just think that's unfair, especially seeing how long her parents were married before Honor came along.
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Re: Polygamy & Inheritance
Post by MC1560   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 8:31 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote:We have seen a couple situations where the "cadet" branch of the family has a lesser title bestowed on the heir to the main title, which they gave up and passed to their own heir when they assumed the higher title.
Example?

Galactic Sapper wrote:It's at least potentially possible that, should Honor and Hamish both shuffle off, Raoul would become Duke and Steadholder Harrington and Katherine would become Countess White Haven.
Manticore practices primogeniture right? Unless there's some special decree, the eldest child (Raoul) inherits.

Galactic Sapper wrote:It's at this point unclear whether Katharine or even her future sibling would be eligible to inherit the Harrington titles. Almost certainly not the Steading, as Grayson law requires an "heir of the body" which Katherine is not and her future sibling is arguably not (Honor may give birth to them, but they will not be hers genetically). Inheritance of the Duchy of Harrington is less clear and will ultimately come down to authorial fiat.
It isn't unclear at all. When Honor/Hamish die, Raoul inherits everything. Should he die without children, Katherine gets White Haven and the Harrington titles are passed to any full siblings Raoul has. If not, they got to Faith and her family.

They may have given Katherine the Harrington name, but she isn't Honor's daughter.
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Re: Polygamy & Inheritance
Post by Erls   » Sat Apr 04, 2020 11:51 pm

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I would think the following would occur:

As well raised children of Honor and Hamish, Raoul and Katherine may have some sibling rivalries but also will get along and care for each other.

Raoul will then, once reaching the age of majority, irrevocably relinquish his claim to the White Haven title and lands except in the case of Katherine dying before him without heirs of her body, allowing the title to revert to his sister, Katherine. At that point in time, in recognition of the long and exemplary service given to the Crown by the current Earl White Haven, the Earldom will be elevated to a Dukedom.

This will result, following the deaths of Honor and Hamish, in:

His Grace, Steadholder Harrington, Duke Harrington (Raoul); and
Her Grace, Duchess White Haven (Katherine).
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Re: Polygamy & Inheritance
Post by Daryl   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:02 am

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There are legal rules regarding the titles, but I'd imagine that the cash would be distributed according to the parent's wishes. Most probably equally. Plenty to go around.
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Re: Polygamy & Inheritance
Post by munroburton   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:45 am

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Daryl wrote:There are legal rules regarding the titles, but I'd imagine that the cash would be distributed according to the parent's wishes. Most probably equally. Plenty to go around.


Indeed, there's a reference somewhere to how little of Catherine Montaigne's wealth was actually tied up(I think the key word is "entailed") with the Earldom of the Tor. When she renounced that title, she remained vastly more wealthy than her brother and successor - who, interestingly, appears to not have gotten half of that non-Tor wealth at the same time Catherine inherited it.

The root of Honor's wealth was prize money from the Battle of Hancock. Nothing to do with her titles. Don't forget we already saw her will executed, with money distributed to various people.

MC1560 wrote:
munroburton wrote:Yes. Where Manticoran law is concerned, Raoul is White Haven's first child, Katherine is his second and that's it.

As for being left out in the cold, this is the adopted daughter of a multi-millionaire(or is it billionaire now?). She's not gonna be cold, unless she's skiing on Gryphon.
For me, it isn't about the money.

In noble society, there's the heir and there's the spares. If Katherine was the firstborn, she and Raoul would both be the heirs (his mother's/her father's). They'd both have seats in the house of lords. They'd be equals.

But since Raoul was firstborn, he'll be "Duke Harrington/Steadholder Harrington/Earl White Haven" while Katherine will be "the sister".

I just think that's unfair, especially seeing how long her parents were married before Honor came along.


Yes, it is unfair. That's just how primogeniture(or, depending how you view it, accidental pregnancies) works. The founders of the Star Kingdom clearly did not want their legacies to be divided and diluted amongst countless heirs like it was in the Holy Roman Empire.
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Re: Polygamy & Inheritance
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:23 am

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MC1560 wrote:Example?

My usually-excellent memory is failing me at the moment, so I don't remember the context of the event well enough to find textev without electronic copies I don't have. I can give two concrete examples where the cadet line has at minimum a "Lord" attached to their name. The first is Hamish himself, who is Lord Alexander" during most of House of Steel. His father is still Earl White Haven. Upon his passing, Hamish assumes the Earldom and Willie becomes Lord Alexander. I don't recall if there's an entire separate title attached to that but it is enough to earn them both seats in the Lords.

The other is Lord Pavel Young who similarly gave his brother a hand-me-down title upon their father's death.

I know there's an actual example of an earl passing the title when assuming a dukedom but I can't for the life of me place who it was. Can anyone help?

Galactic Sapper wrote:It's at least potentially possible that, should Honor and Hamish both shuffle off, Raoul would become Duke and Steadholder Harrington and Katherine would become Countess White Haven.
Manticore practices primogeniture right? Unless there's some special decree, the eldest child (Raoul) inherits.


I was setting up a situation as described above. Raoul would technically inherit both, but the White Haven title would go to his heir as the cadet line. Although that does raise the question of whether the White Haven title would transfer to Raoul's child when born and leave Katherine without a title or stick with Katherine and become a true cadet line. Probably better if they take Erls advice above and formalize their wishes before shuffling off.

Galactic Sapper wrote:It's at this point unclear whether Katharine or even her future sibling would be eligible to inherit the Harrington titles. Almost certainly not the Steading, as Grayson law requires an "heir of the body" which Katherine is not and her future sibling is arguably not (Honor may give birth to them, but they will not be hers genetically). Inheritance of the Duchy of Harrington is less clear and will ultimately come down to authorial fiat.
It isn't unclear at all. When Honor/Hamish die, Raoul inherits everything. Should he die without children, Katherine gets White Haven and the Harrington titles are passed to any full siblings Raoul has. If not, they got to Faith and her family.

They may have given Katherine the Harrington name, but she isn't Honor's daughter.

That's what I mean about unclear. We simply don't know enough about Manticoran law to predict how such a thing involving a multiple marriage would turn out. You're probably correct that it would work out the same way the Grayson inheritance would but there's plenty of room for authorial fiat that could be explained in a completely reasonable way. For instance Helen being in the line of succession for the Torch throne despite not being related at all to Berry.
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