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New Hypatian Navy.

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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 11:58 am

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Just see the example of Marsh in WoH. They were several years (?) into the process of building from scratch and still didn't have officers who fit the RMN standard of ready for command. Most were incredibly junior for the positions they did hold, at least by RMN standards. Torch is the same way.

And most of the newly freed systems of the fringe and verge. There are likely thousands of world fending for themselves for the first time in quite a while and most will have nothing more than a customs service to use as training cadre and the nucleus of an actual fleet if they feel they need one.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 1:16 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Yes, there are "90 day wonders" where you put civilians through crash training to be officers. And enlisted training and tech schools don't take years. But you really don't want a navy with near zero experienced officers or NCOs. Any Hypatia doesn't even have the trainers or training courses. They'd probably have to send at least their first several crops of students off through someone else's naval training.

It'll take years, with loaners and cross posting to other navies, before they'd be able to stand up their own effective self-defense force/navy - no mater where the ships come from. So the poster implying they'd do so immediately as a stop-gap before "new GA ships NEXT YEAR" seemed to be overlooking how long it'd take to do so.


And I'm arguing that they'll do no such thing anyway. The ships mostly crewed by Beowulfans will be sufficient to protect the Hypatia System, while citizens originating in Hypatia enter OCS and enlisted training. As a system with 10 billion people, I'd also expect quite a few ex-SLN to come back that they can assume senior positions in the new Navy.

So the new Hypatian-Beowulfan Navy will be severely lopsided towards Beowulfan natives for the foreseeable future, even decades. But that's not a problem, just like an RMN crewed by mostly natives of the MBS is just fine protecting San Martin, Lynx and the Talbott and Silesian Quadrants.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 3:42 pm

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Beowulf is a Star Nation but not a multi-system entity like Manticore, the Aldemani Empire. My recollection it that it does have a set of very close trading partners and several daughter systems but no unified political arrangement.
That could be changing but we shall have to see. I had thought that Hypatia was going into a trade (at least) arrangement with Beowulf, that probably would include a mutual defence pact for which Beowulf would be holding up the majority of the defence part for now.
Setting up a Hypatian SDF to work in alliance with Bowulf is possible though it will take a while. Other than the GA, Erwhon and the Alderman Empire- which are not likely to come smash Hypatia now- there is the Alignment and it's weapons (which outclass anyting Hypatia can field for quite a while) the as yet unrevield Mannerheim SDF -which will be playing nice for a fair amount of time in the process of working on the RF and the very large remander of the SLN which is unlikely to come snarling out of where Honor has told them to stay.

Putting a couple of former SLN DD's, CA and even a BC into service with a scratch built navy will be tough but there are places to get help. The GA now has just about everything you could know about SLN ships so what and how to fix them isn't so much the problems as getting parts you can't strip from surrendered or recoverd hulls. Some of that could come from any reperations agains the SL but that's a different question.
Hypatia certainly has a clear example of the professional Navy it wants to build and inspiration to drive itself so the SDF will reach those standards. Beowulf -though we haven't see much beyond what happend at the Terminus - has a professional grade SDF which has worked in concert with RMN for a long time and could supply some cadre along with RMN. Remember that Beowulf has a considerable web of trade agreements and seems to have been doing commerce protection itself, not relying on SLN (BF certainly not, and with not much confidence of FF given their track record of being involved with all sorts of opression and shady dealings) to protect it's own merchant fleet and provide patroling and deference on routes it's merchants were operating outside the "tender care" of FF.
As far as Hypatia working out something to aquire the prize and salvage rights to the SLN ships and pieces thereof it has in-system, I'm confident that Manticore would make a very good arrangement to swap hulls and hulks they have no real use of for various things that Hypatia already makes or could make under (very) generous licensing agreements to aid in the Manticoreian recovery. Possibly centi-bits on the Credit range because that would also stoke the already large goodwill and it lets Hypatia "buy" the ships, not be given them.
Good, solid, mutal trade and economic agreements are a complex weave of getting fair value & terms. And Manticore want's Beowulf to be sucessful with this too. You know, that system that has centuries of solid treaty, cultual agreements and a lot of intermarage between populations with :)
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Maldorian   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:12 pm

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I couldn´t remember the battle of Hypathia, but I am still one book short (yeah, german transtators..).

In short therms: What is with Mesa? Mesa surrendered and with it it´s Navy! I guess their ships should be the best in solarian space (I know Mesa is not in the League).

Give them to Hyphatia till they could build better ones.


The Mesan Navy was nothing more than a couple dozen battle cruisers and lighter ships of Solarian design. Useful but not a system defense fleet in the way Manticorans think of the term.


Maybe I made my point not clear enough. There are warships of the solarian Battle and Frontier Fleet and on the other hand ships of other solarian navies. Battlefleet is pre-Laserwarhead standard, that means a few more generations behind of the other Laser-Warhead navies. Laser-Warhead navies have bigger Missle magazines and of course a better missle defense, maybe missles with higher range, so, if you have the choice to get outdated ships (Mesa) or use stone age ships (Battle/Frontier Fleet), which ships would you choose?

And don´t forget, Technodyne is an Mesan company, so Mesa has access to everything they can offer and Measa has with Beowulf and other anti slavery activists a lot of enemies, so a good military budget is a need.

So, my point is, the mesan ships are maybe the best ships in "solarian" space, only the heaven sector troublemaker have better ships.

And my point was also, to use these ships as training platforms till they can get better material. The mesan ships could be at Hypatia in 2-3 months, newbuilds need a few years.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 6:56 pm

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Maldorian wrote:Maybe I made my point not clear enough. There are warships of the solarian Battle and Frontier Fleet and on the other hand ships of other solarian navies. Battlefleet is pre-Laserwarhead standard, that means a few more generations behind of the other Laser-Warhead navies. Laser-Warhead navies have bigger Missle magazines and of course a better missle defense, maybe missles with higher range, so, if you have the choice to get outdated ships (Mesa) or use stone age ships (Battle/Frontier Fleet), which ships would you choose?


That's not correct. The Solarian Scientist- and Vega-class SDs that Battle Fleet employed are definitely equipped with laser warheads and are recent enough to anticipate facing them in battle. They had developed tactics for using those warheads and countering them. Those two classes are probably equal to pre-war Havenite DuQuesne-class SDs and Manticoran Sphinx class from 1900.

You may be confusing the top of the line Solarian SDs with the Battle Fleet Reserve, those 8000 SDs held in mothballs in case they needed to stomp on some upstart neobarb. Manticoran intelligence found out a great deal of them still had shotguns for point defence, which means they would be inadequate against the range a laser warhead fired at. But those ships never saw any action (and never will).

BFs problem was that neither their ships nor their crews actually had any experience. The tactics they had developed were inadequate and often were papered over to make the brass look good. The ships had issues that weren't known until they were actually tested in battle. That's unlike the Frontier Fleet, which actually got to fight some pirates and some small Verge navies. Their crews had some experience, though they fielded nothing bigger than a BC.

And as we've said, the Mesan Space Navy had nothing bigger than a BC either. Probably those were export versions of SLN Nevada-class BCs.

And don´t forget, Technodyne is an Mesan company, so Mesa has access to everything they can offer and Measa has with Beowulf and other anti slavery activists a lot of enemies, so a good military budget is a need.


Actually, no, Technodyne is not Mesan. They must have had offices in Mesa and were thoroughly infiltrated by the Alignment, but Technodyne's headquarters were in Yildun, an uninhabited system with massive asteroid belts and a wormhole bridge.

But the Mesan Space Navy did not have a large budget. The Alignment specifically underplayed the official Mesan navy commitments to avoid drawing attention to it. They probably did field quite a few CL and DD classes so provide commerce protection, such as we saw in Crown of Slaves when the MSN responded to HMS Gauntlet helping secure the independence of the Congo System.

But I imagine the biggest protections the slaver ships enjoyed was their anonymity, their off-the-beaten-path routes and the collusion with government officials. If slavers were on normal routes PRH, RMN or BSDF knew of, they could expect a visit, escort or no.

So, my point is, the mesan ships are maybe the best ships in "solarian" space, only the heaven sector troublemaker have better ships.

And my point was also, to use these ships as training platforms till they can get better material. The mesan ships could be at Hypatia in 2-3 months, newbuilds need a few years.


Sorry, that conclusion can't be right.

If you meant ships built by Technodyne, then yes, TIY can definitely build a lot of ships quickly and deliver to Hypatia. But who will want them? Those ships are all outdated and outclassed by Haven Sector improvements. Hypatia doesn't want TIY ships if they can get access to GA technology.

And besides, Beowulf does have shipyards. If Hypatia is going to buy from anyone, it's going to be from Beowulf.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by drothgery   » Sun Apr 05, 2020 10:40 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Maldorian wrote:Maybe I made my point not clear enough. There are warships of the solarian Battle and Frontier Fleet and on the other hand ships of other solarian navies. Battlefleet is pre-Laserwarhead standard, that means a few more generations behind of the other Laser-Warhead navies. Laser-Warhead navies have bigger Missle magazines and of course a better missle defense, maybe missles with higher range, so, if you have the choice to get outdated ships (Mesa) or use stone age ships (Battle/Frontier Fleet), which ships would you choose?


That's not correct. The Solarian Scientist- and Vega-class SDs that Battle Fleet employed are definitely equipped with laser warheads and are recent enough to anticipate facing them in battle. They had developed tactics for using those warheads and countering them.


They have laserhead missiles, but were not designed to face them (the Scientist is a pre-laserhead design and the Vegas are basically repeat Scientists with minor tweaks). And they clearly did not have tactics designed for even the pre-MDM but post-laserhead missile environment.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Captain Golding   » Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:23 am

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Agreed that Hypatia will have a large learning curve before they are able to field GA level combatants.

SLN SD's are not worth manning. That does not apply to the smaller combatants. Also smaller combatants need smaller crews.

Hypathia also needs to gain experience providing Naval Dockyards.

SO no matter the long term reality I would think that refiting some of the SLN CA and BC's would be a worthwhile excercise while a small flottilla of about 6 ships would be useful as a training fleet.

For SD's how effective are the older Beowulf vessels ? No MDM's, no FTL Comms but comparable with the final generations of Manti or Peep SD's? These will be replaced real soon now as 1st line vessels and will the BSDF want to keep them? Got to be better than the Solarian construction because the BSDF have been paying attention!

There are of course other SLN minor vessels in Manticore hands - are old Gauntlets useful for Adm. Sarno in Silestia for instance.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Maldorian   » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:27 am

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That's not correct. The Solarian Scientist- and Vega-class SDs that Battle Fleet employed are definitely equipped with laser warheads and are recent enough to anticipate facing them in battle. They had developed tactics for using those warheads and countering them. Those two classes are probably equal to pre-war Havenite DuQuesne-class SDs and Manticoran Sphinx class from 1900.


They can use Laserwarheads, but are not designed for their use and the tactics behind them.

My point is, that the Mesan ships are newer design than the FF or BF ships.

You can use older ships as training vessels, but when you get the real ships from Manticore/Andermani/Beowulf/Whoever you have to train them for these ships.

My guess is, because Mesan ships are more modern that you don´t have to re-train your crews as much as if you use Battle Fleet crap.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:33 am

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Maldorian wrote:They can use Laserwarheads, but are not designed for their use and the tactics behind them.

My point is, that the Mesan ships are newer design than the FF or BF ships.


I didn't say they were good designs. The SLN definitely did not do a good job. But they'd known about laser warheads for decades, so they had to react to it.

Besides, what Mesan ships are you talking about? There were no shipyards in Mesa, as far as we know. The MSN fielded the same type of ships as the SLN, probably even the export versions.

You can use older ships as training vessels, but when you get the real ships from Manticore/Andermani/Beowulf/Whoever you have to train them for these ships.

My guess is, because Mesan ships are more modern that you don´t have to re-train your crews as much as if you use Battle Fleet crap.


Sorry, that logic fails in three points:

1) as above: what Mesan ship classes are you talking about? The only time we've seen the MSN in almost action was in the Congo System. In Crown of Slaves ch. 46, an MSN force of 1 BC, 2 CAs, 3 CLs and 14 DDs, but the ship classes and origins are not described.

2) why buy from anyone outside the GA? The yards in Manticore and Grayson were destroyed; the six in Haven and however many in the Andermani Empire were not, so they can produce vessels. And that's assuming Manticore had no other yards capable of producing smaller ships, which they might.

Unless you meant using the ships captured at Mesa by Tenth and Second Fleets. I don't think those ships are available. I'd expect them to be turned back to the new, provisional government once that forms.

3) most importantly, there's absolutely no reason for the Hypatian natives to do anything separate from Beowulf. If they united with Beowulf, then the BSDF becomes their union's navy, which means the BSDF's procurement and shipbuilding capacity is Hypatia's too. The Hypatian natives should be crewing Hypatian-Beowulfan ships.
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Re: New Hypatian Navy.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:01 am

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drothgery wrote:
They have laserhead missiles, but were not designed to face them (the Scientist is a pre-laserhead design and the Vegas are basically repeat Scientists with minor tweaks). And they clearly did not have tactics designed for even the pre-MDM but post-laserhead missile environment.

Agree; mostly. The basic Scientist design (which the Vego largely inherited) is a couple centuries old; and thus predates adoption of laserhead missiles. As as such its armor scheme and basic design is optimized around resisting burn/boom nukes and broadside energy weapons.

Now, to be fair, the in-service ships have been fairly heavily refit over time, making them vastly more survivable in the, say 1905-1914 PD laserhead era, than their un-refit counterparts lingering in the Reserve Fleet. But they're still in large part stuck with many of those original design choices driven by pre-laserhead combat. And thus assumed to be, ton for ton, significantly less capable of facing even that obsolete combat environment than the RMN's far newer Sphynx or Gryphon-class SDs, or even their Bellerophon-class DNs; with which they entered original Havenite war. The Scientist/Vega is also undoubtedly less capable than if the SLN had been given the ability to do a clean-sheet design in the late 1800s, based around that newer combat paradigm.
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