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How many planets would leave the republic of haven?

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How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by ThisName1   » Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:44 pm

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Re-reading the series and have started to wonder how many worlds would vote for independence from the republic of heaven.

My first thought was that most would stay, because of the economic resurgence of haven. But can that outweigh the brutal conquest and decades of abuse from the peeps?

And if some planets do leave does haven have little pockets of independent systems inside its borders?
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Re: How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by Duckk   » Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:16 pm

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The infodump is down still, but there was a post in there that covers this. Basically, all the major powerhouses chose to stick with the Republic, as most of them were daughter colonies of Haven to begin with. A fair number of secondary and tertiary systems, especially those that were recent conquests, did choose to go their own way. But even that number is lower than one might expect, due to how tirelessly Theisman and Prichart worked to demonstrate how the Republic was different from the People's Republic.
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Re: How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Mar 29, 2020 10:08 pm

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ThisName1 wrote:And if some planets do leave does haven have little pockets of independent systems inside its borders?


Yes and no. Yes, there are likely independent systems inside the volume that is most mostly the Republic of Haven, the same way there are probably non-Silesian systems in the Confederacy and non-SEM systems in the Talbott Quadrant.

No because, countries on a planet, that doesn't really create enclaves. Hyperspace travel means the ships going to and from those planets do not have to pass through space controlled by Haven. Travellers don't need to disembark on Haven territory first in order to go elsewhere. Trade can also be similarly unencumbered, as freighters can be routed directly to this planet.

Would they want to? Logistically, they may not: it might be better, economically, to make shipments to a central hub in a close-by RoH system, like a sector capital, then transship the cargo that is bound to that particular system on a handful of vessels. That adds to the cost for the system itself, but lowers the cost for the shipping companies. This system will also probably have Haven as its single largest trading partner, due to its proximity. And since there is no long-range FTL communication in the Honorverse (yet?), this system will be likely culturally linked to Haven too: it'll get a lot of news from Haven and through Haven.

In summary, they may be independent systems, de jure and de facto now with Pritchart, but realistically speaking they are part of the greater Havenite economic and cultural region.
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Re: How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by lyonheart   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:11 am

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Hi Everybody! :D

While the original textev said the peep's had over a hundred systems when the war began, later expansions by RFC in posts here and elsewhere raised that to almost 270, with around 130-150 deciding to stay with the new republic.

Given the peep's went conquistador only in 1846, those that left were probably mainly victims, although some daughter colonies etc, may have been too abused by the peeps to stay connected in any way, as noted by the previous posters.

So the new RoH may indeed be full of 'holes', with Pritchart and the RoH doing their best to ensure they stay independent of the RoH, while not succumbing to other outside influences, to prove the new RoH isn't collecting star systems again.

Interesting times indeed,

lyonheart



ThinksMarkedly wrote:
ThisName1 wrote:And if some planets do leave does haven have little pockets of independent systems inside its borders?


Yes and no. Yes, there are likely independent systems inside the volume that is most mostly the Republic of Haven, the same way there are probably non-Silesian systems in the Confederacy and non-SEM systems in the Talbott Quadrant.

No because, countries on a planet, that doesn't really create enclaves. Hyperspace travel means the ships going to and from those planets do not have to pass through space controlled by Haven. Travellers don't need to disembark on Haven territory first in order to go elsewhere. Trade can also be similarly unencumbered, as freighters can be routed directly to this planet.

Would they want to? Logistically, they may not: it might be better, economically, to make shipments to a central hub in a close-by RoH system, like a sector capital, then transship the cargo that is bound to that particular system on a handful of vessels. That adds to the cost for the system itself, but lowers the cost for the shipping companies. This system will also probably have Haven as its single largest trading partner, due to its proximity. And since there is no long-range FTL communication in the Honorverse (yet?), this system will be likely culturally linked to Haven too: it'll get a lot of news from Haven and through Haven.

In summary, they may be independent systems, de jure and de facto now with Pritchart, but realistically speaking they are part of the greater Havenite economic and cultural region.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:10 pm

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From lyonheart's statistics that's almost half???

Seems that could become a real problem in the future if they truly are "Independent." In several other posts I touched on the possibility that the leopard's spots could return. Could the fact that they've lost so many polities help fuel an outbreak of spots? Seems a fine time for the Malign to move in and set up housekeeping. One's enemy, unbeknownst or not, gobbling up your shedded territories and gaining a beachhead into your back yard doesn't seem like an ideal situation.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 5:09 pm

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cthia wrote:From lyonheart's statistics that's almost half???

Seems that could become a real problem in the future if they truly are "Independent." In several other posts I touched on the possibility that the leopard's spots could return. Could the fact that they've lost so many polities help fuel an outbreak of spots? Seems a fine time for the Malign to move in and set up housekeeping. One's enemy, unbeknownst or not, gobbling up your shedded territories and gaining a beachhead into your back yard doesn't seem like an ideal situation.


While independent, they will probably stay in the Havenite economic orbit - few have the economy to be truly independent. Prior to being part of the PRH, most had economic ties to Haven to some level or another - some were even agricultural exporters to Haven and other heavily populated RoH worlds. None will have a substantial navy. The 20 or so worlds that were under Manticore control for 5-10 years might decide to align with Manticore - but the way things are looking, this just means being attached to another hub in the same economic chain.

So while possible, it will be more than a simple task to create a bridge head in the RoH's rear - though not impossible.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by drothgery   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 6:38 pm

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cthia wrote:From lyonheart's statistics that's almost half???

On paper, but a lot of the systems that were nominally claimed by the People's Republic were essentially empty or empty except for a navy base that doesn't really make sense under modern doctrine.
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Re: How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by cthia   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:22 pm

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drothgery wrote:
cthia wrote:From lyonheart's statistics that's almost half???

On paper, but a lot of the systems that were nominally claimed by the People's Republic were essentially empty or empty except for a navy base that doesn't really make sense under modern doctrine.

I see. My concern is that the backdrop of the entire series is that the hole card of the MA is the RF's plan to brainwash and recruit planets. Those that choose to secede broadcast themselves as possibly being ripe for fanatics of the MA brand.

Which reminds me of a question. How economically stable will the RF be? If they can offer shedded territories other economic avenues...

Another question. We've argued the right of polities to secede from their "Unions." :D

Does, say, Haven have the right to sever ties on their own accord for whatever reason? Does the League and Manticore? "We just don't feel we need you anymore."

It seems that any shedded territories in Haven or League space with ready made bases should appeal to the RF.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by Theemile   » Mon Mar 30, 2020 7:44 pm

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drothgery wrote:
cthia wrote:From lyonheart's statistics that's almost half???

On paper, but a lot of the systems that were nominally claimed by the People's Republic were essentially empty or empty except for a navy base that doesn't really make sense under modern doctrine.


That's true of the systems like Nightingale, Barnett, and Seaford, where they were forward operating bases for the waves of conquests, but scores of other systems were captured for their economies, so they could power the PRH for another year or 2. Those are the systems which left the RoH, those with their economies gutted, with recent memories of self-governance. Most of those worlds never got the investment of a naval Base.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How many planets would leave the republic of haven?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Mar 31, 2020 10:17 am

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cthia wrote:I see. My concern is that the backdrop of the entire series is that the hole card of the MA is the RF's plan to brainwash and recruit planets. Those that choose to secede broadcast themselves as possibly being ripe for fanatics of the MA brand.


That's an interesting concern, but I don't think it'll happen. First, those systems have seen their oppressor's enemy suddenly align with their oppressor against someone even more threatening. They're paying attention. In fact, the creation of the Grand Alliance is actually likely to drive some of those systems back into the RoH. After all, they don't have a navy but the RoH has, the largest force outside the SLN. They also now have 7 years of RoH economic growth, reforms, and promises kept.

Second, those systems have always been part of the Haven economic region -- they didn't call it the Haven Sector for no reason. If they choose to stay independent, they'll resist any outside influence. But more importantly, there's a huge risk for the MAlign/RF to try and infiltrate those systems. The PRH thoroughly controlled most of those systems, so the RoH still has all the contacts and insights into the government. And now that we've seen an attempt to infiltrate the Maya Sector government, the GA will be paying very close attention to any independent systems in proximity that begin to make noises.

Which reminds me of a question. How economically stable will the RF be? If they can offer shedded territories other economic avenues...


I've argued before that the Detweiler Plan is entirely off the rails today. The war that they engineered to make the League shatter didn't actually shatter it as thoroughly as the planners called for and, worse, left an even stronger entity intact (the GA). The RF is not the shining light in the times of chaos, it's barely a candle compared to everyone else left.
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