?

penny wrote:

Theemile wrote:It's like designing a modern "Boomer" Submarine with dual minigun turrets to handle small boats.

It's not to say that there are not situations where the guns could be used to good effect - A Sub surfacing in the middle of bunch of pirate speed boats could make short work of them, or protect itself going into a "suspect" port.

But a Boomer should never be employed in such a role. It's job is to hide, protect itself from hunter/killer attack subs, and when D-day comes, launch it's nukes from far away. it should never do a different role or enter a "sketchy" port unless it absolutely needs to. Putting anything on said ship which gives a capability counter to it's main role is a waste 99.99% of the time, and doing any other roles puts a multi Billion dollar strategic asset needlessly at harm.

That being said, giving a Boomer a pair of M-2 50 cals it can mount to the observation deck on the sail just in case it needs
to defend itself and 10-20 boxes of ammo is a completely different story. That's not going to entice an admiral or Captain to hazard the unit "Because it has that capability", it doesn't detract from the main design, is cheap and easily storable, and gives an extra ounce of protection, just in case.

My thoughts exactly. I think y'all may still be committing hari kari by getting too indoctrinated with all things made in Manticore and GA tactics. I have preaching to the choir that MA technology requires a completely different set of rules across the board. An alpha launch (of g-torps) would not comprise the thousands of missiles of a GA launch. I'm thinking an alpha launch of undetectable g-torps would only need to be... less than one hundred. Simply tens of 3-second firing g-torps are going to wreck a GA fleets day. Like I said from the start, there does not have to be a lot of these things stored. Actually, a hundred of these emergency missiles could be affixed to an externally bolted pod!

LDs can get in close people, and at the opening phase of the war is not the time for the MA to become so guarded. The MA needs a short victorious war, and as I have often said before, they may be the first navy that can get it. Consider that when they attack, it will be in conjunction with traditional wedge based ships which have a few surprises of their own. That is when LDs that have been sitting and watching for months move in! The GA will be too busy with what they can see. Distraction. Cover fire, if you will.

And again, don't be so caught up in the cost of the asset. Honor taught us that the cost of the tech is not as important as the victory. It would be insane to worry about saving the cost of an LD at the expense of its capabilities. The opening phase of the war is not the time for the MA to be timid!

penny wrote:

Theemile wrote:It's like designing a modern "Boomer" Submarine with dual minigun turrets to handle small boats.

It's not to say that there are not situations where the guns could be used to good effect - A Sub surfacing in the middle of bunch of pirate speed boats could make short work of them, or protect itself going into a "suspect" port.

But a Boomer should never be employed in such a role. It's job is to hide, protect itself from hunter/killer attack subs, and when D-day comes, launch it's nukes from far away. it should never do a different role or enter a "sketchy" port unless it absolutely needs to. Putting anything on said ship which gives a capability counter to it's main role is a waste 99.99% of the time, and doing any other roles puts a multi Billion dollar strategic asset needlessly at harm.

That being said, giving a Boomer a pair of M-2 50 cals it can mount to the observation deck on the sail just in case it needs
to defend itself and 10-20 boxes of ammo is a completely different story. That's not going to entice an admiral or Captain to hazard the unit "Because it has that capability", it doesn't detract from the main design, is cheap and easily storable, and gives an extra ounce of protection, just in case.

My thoughts exactly. I think y'all may still be committing hari kari by getting too indoctrinated with all things made in Manticore and GA tactics. I have preaching to the choir that MA technology requires a completely different set of rules across the board. An alpha launch (of g-torps) would not comprise the thousands of missiles of a GA launch. I'm thinking an alpha launch of undetectable g-torps would only need to be... less than one hundred. Simply tens of 3-second firing g-torps are going to wreck a GA fleets day. Like I said from the start, there does not have to be a lot of these things stored. Actually, a hundred of these emergency missiles could be affixed to an externally bolted pod!

LDs can get in close people, and at the opening phase of the war is not the time for the MA to become so guarded. The MA needs a short victorious war, and as I have often said before, they may be the first navy that can get it. Consider that when they attack, it will be in conjunction with traditional wedge based ships which have a few surprises of their own. That is when LDs that have been sitting and watching for months move in! The GA will be too busy with what they can see. Distraction. Cover fire, if you will.

And again, don't be so caught up in the cost of the asset. Honor taught us that the cost of the tech is not as important as the victory. It would be insane to worry about saving the cost of an LD at the expense of its capabilities. The opening phase of the war is not the time for the MA to be timid!

Theemile wrote:My point was the exact opposite - as we know it, LD's vulnerable in close, and an expensive strategic asset. It shouldn't be hazarded. the Ma duces in my analogy would be something like a company of Marines... just in case you are boarded or need to Board something. An LD can't get itself out of something when it gets in trouble and shouldn't hazard itself.

penny wrote:Historically subs were "hazarded" all too frequently. One sub had the balls to surface in the middle of a fleet that was obviously sitting ducks. No pain. No gain. And again, subs of yore could not do to an unsuspected target what an LD can. No risk no reward. If your only objection is the cost of an LD, consider the cost of a protracted war.

Theemile wrote:

penny wrote:Historically subs were "hazarded" all too frequently. One sub had the balls to surface in the middle of a fleet that was obviously sitting ducks. No pain. No gain. And again, subs of yore could not do to an unsuspected target what an LD can. No risk no reward. If your only objection is the cost of an LD, consider the cost of a protracted war.

I'm speaking specifically about a Boomer - a Nuclear missile sub... Not a Fleet sub or an attack sub. Boomers were not a part of the WWII fleet mix, but part of the Cold War.

They don't hazard themselves. They hide. The US Boomer force's motto - "We Hide with Pride." They have 3 Jobs:
1) Stay as undetectable as possible
2) Fire the rockets when ordered
3) stay alive until they order you to fire the rockets

Boomer Captains who try to use a Boomer as an attack boat quickly become civilians.

Boomers go out to the middle of no where, and dives to 75% of it's crush depth, then trolls along a ~8 knots silently in a random pattern through it's assigned patrol sector, turning away from every detected target, while trying to emulate a hole in the water, then return to their base 90 days later.

Attack boats and SSGNs do the rest of the sub roles.

it's not a matter of cost - it's roles. Attack subs are in people's faces. Attack subs jobs are pushing the edges. Losing an attack sub reduces your military capabilities and hazards other units - Losing a Boomer directly hazards the security of the Country.

penny wrote:Ah, I can see clearly now. I misunderstood your post, because I should have looked up the meaning of boomer. My badd. I can agree if and only if the MA has designed smaller versions of an LD that can carry out the role of attack subs or SSGNs. I posited different versions of an LD in another thread.

We have disagreed in the forum about whether the MA will have time, or have had time, to build the target number of LDs listed at 100. We have never disagreed that text states the number of target LDs is 100.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Ah, I can see clearly now. I misunderstood your post, because I should have looked up the meaning of boomer. My badd. I can agree if and only if the MA has designed smaller versions of an LD that can carry out the role of attack subs or SSGNs. I posited different versions of an LD in another thread.

We have disagreed in the forum about whether the MA will have time, or have had time, to build the target number of LDs listed at 100. We have never disagreed that text states the number of target LDs is 100.

Um, actually. I don't recall any text saying how many LDs are being built or what their target build numbers are.

The class is only mentioned by name in three places:
* SftS Ch 51 - where Admiral Frederick Topolev, as his Sharks do their linked hyper entry into Manticoran space, muses that Sharks weren't intended to be used for this LDs were -- and all it says of them is they'd be after Sharks proved the basic concept. Nothing about numbers or capabilities.

* MoH Ch 27 - where we're told the LDs were designed with magazines and launch tubes for g-torps; but none of the LDs were even close to completion. Nothing about numbers.

* MoH Ch 38 - where Albrecht Detweiler is vising Darius on his private yacht, and see what will become the first units of the LD class. We're told most of the far from complete LDs are already bigger than the Sharks - and when complete they'd be tougher and more dangerous. But again nothing about class numbers; or even the number currently under construction. (Though it did make it sounds like Darius's 4 stations were probably all yards -- but we don't know how many LD sized slips each has)

If there's some other spot where the class is referenced indirectly and build numbers are given please share; because, as I said, I don't recall reading that info

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Um, actually. I don't recall any text saying how many LDs are being built or what their target build numbers are.

The class is only mentioned by name in three places:
* SftS Ch 51 - where Admiral Frederick Topolev, as his Sharks do their linked hyper entry into Manticoran space, muses that Sharks weren't intended to be used for this LDs were -- and all it says of them is they'd be after Sharks proved the basic concept. Nothing about numbers or capabilities.

* MoH Ch 27 - where we're told the LDs were designed with magazines and launch tubes for g-torps; but none of the LDs were even close to completion. Nothing about numbers.

* MoH Ch 38 - where Albrecht Detweiler is vising Darius on his private yacht, and see what will become the first units of the LD class. We're told most of the far from complete LDs are already bigger than the Sharks - and when complete they'd be tougher and more dangerous. But again nothing about class numbers; or even the number currently under construction. (Though it did make it sounds like Darius's 4 stations were probably all yards -- but we don't know how many LD sized slips each has)

If there's some other spot where the class is referenced indirectly and build numbers are given please share; because, as I said, I don't recall reading that info

Admittedly I gleaned that info from the drunken wiki. But I am going to have to refer back to the LDs designer David Weber, who I keep insisting made a cameo appearance in a thread cautioning the statement that they are not ready. And he certainly did not dispute that the target number is 100. And I find it difficult to believe that even the drunken wiki would pull such a specific number out of its inebriated ass. Perhaps it came from another source, like an interview, etc.

At any rate, can I assume that you agree that a target number of 100 LDs should be overkill for a strategy of launching ICBMs at infrastructure from the far edge of the system?

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Let's not forget that it is supposed to be detectible, by the MAlign's own technology, and possibly under test conditions, i.e., when they both know what to look for and when to be looking, and possibly where; all of those conditions we must assume. Certainly if it is our ass in the hot seat. We can hope the MA carried out those tests with traditional sensors available to the GA, and I agree that is possible. But then, still, the MA knew where, what and when to be looking, again, this we must assume.

Mission of Honor is fairly clear that there are two different detection risks.
1) Detecting the spider-ship itself using passive sensors - there's nothing special about those sensors and the MAlign doesn't know how well theirs stack up against the GA's. This is also where the risk is directional as a sensor is position to see the directed heat radiated away would have a vastly easier time spotting the ship.

2) Detecting the spider drive -- that's where the MAlign "had taken them the better part of two T-years to develop their own detectors, even knowing what they were looking for, and that those detectors were still far from anything anyone would ever call reliable". But we don't know how those detectors work or what signals they're detecting -- so we've no basis to judge whether any of the GA's tech might do as well at detecting them.



If they were only detectably by special MAlign sensors then the captain of the Ghost-class Apparition sneaking around the Yeltsin system wouldn't have been worried about the GSN CAs passing within a light-minute (~18 million km) or two of his ship. But he was concerned, though not unduly so, about their approach -- and further was concerned that the flare from bringing up the drive might be more detectable than simply continuing to coast ballistic pretending to be a hole in space.

(Still, his main concern was that the GSN cruisers might decide to launch a shell of recon drones -- and if those overflew him he would most likely wouldn't be able to hide his radiated heat from all of them; leading to his detection)



All that said, you do have a point that the MAlign knew what to look for with their passive sensors -- so even if it turns out those sensors are less capable than Manticore's latest the MAlign still likely has an edge on detecting the spider ships since they know what signature to look for in what signals they do pick up.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Um, actually. I don't recall any text saying how many LDs are being built or what their target build numbers are.

The class is only mentioned by name in three places:
* SftS Ch 51 - where Admiral Frederick Topolev, as his Sharks do their linked hyper entry into Manticoran space, muses that Sharks weren't intended to be used for this LDs were -- and all it says of them is they'd be after Sharks proved the basic concept. Nothing about numbers or capabilities.

* MoH Ch 27 - where we're told the LDs were designed with magazines and launch tubes for g-torps; but none of the LDs were even close to completion. Nothing about numbers.

* MoH Ch 38 - where Albrecht Detweiler is vising Darius on his private yacht, and see what will become the first units of the LD class. We're told most of the far from complete LDs are already bigger than the Sharks - and when complete they'd be tougher and more dangerous. But again nothing about class numbers; or even the number currently under construction. (Though it did make it sounds like Darius's 4 stations were probably all yards -- but we don't know how many LD sized slips each has)

If there's some other spot where the class is referenced indirectly and build numbers are given please share; because, as I said, I don't recall reading that info

Admittedly I gleaned that info from the drunken wiki. But I am going to have to refer back to the LDs designer David Weber, who I keep insisting made a cameo appearance in a thread cautioning the statement that they are not ready. And he certainly did not dispute that the target number is 100. And I find it difficult to believe that even the drunken wiki would pull such a specific number out of its inebriated ass. Perhaps it came from another source, like an interview, etc.

At any rate, can I assume that you agree that a target number of 100 LDs should be overkill for a strategy of launching ICBMs at infrastructure from the far edge of the system?

Jonathan_S wrote:I'm not finding a reference to 100 of them in the wiki either. The page on the ship class only says "a far bigger number of Leonard Detweiler-class units were planned to be built" (without any reference to back that up)

I even checked the page's history to see if at any point in the past it had claimed 100, and no that "far bigger number" was the first reference to number and remained unchanged since being added on 19 February 2010.

(I also checked the entries for Darius, Darius Prime, and Spider Drive in case they mentioned the construction; but they didn't)



At the moment you're the only one I see saying "100".

(And even if RFC did comment in a thread that had previously guessed 100 LDs I don't think we can read anything into him reportedly not addressing that guess. He generally avoids nailing himself down and likes to go 'tum tee tum' when pushed on specifics about things, tech, or ship details that haven't yet appeared in print.)

penny wrote:You keep saying that, and I keep smiling just as an LD would. You call an LD captain incompetent because his spider web is so stealthy that he simply allows the flies to come to him? He may simply regard it as allowing the range to tick down.

A juicy target like Harrington is worth more than an LD! Take the fucking Queen off the board! Don't insult the Salamander, even if the LD is lost, the Salamander is certainly worth an LD! Even two! Several? Again, a war of attrition against the GA's best officers is a frightening proposition.[/b]