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How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is gone?

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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by Theemile   » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:21 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Correct.

The RMN needs to maintain a tech advantage until everyone in the SL is over 8th Fleet's visit to Sol system. Keep in mind that a few SL systems have economies bigger than Manticore all by themselves.


However, the Manties and friends will still have several advantages.

1) Modern Experience - all the current Havernite sector Naval personnel have an incredible level of experience in naval combat. That professionalism will extend for some time in the future, even as new recruits cycle through the fleet.

2) Modern Tactics and strategic thinking - the Havenite Sector Navies have developed modern tactics through Darwinian trials - Not to say that there is nothing new to be used, but their military thinking is proven true.

3) Educational systems - the GA have schools with modern training regimes which can pump out recruits with modern thinking, and have rotated the best from the field to revamp the curriculum. This needs to be developed first, by trial and error, along with your doctrine.

3) Working modern designs - both in warfighting and construction, the Havenite sector navies have leading edge capabilities. Yes, that may erode, but everybody else needs to develop them first.

4) a Leadership mindset and knowledge of what a national warfighting stance takes. - Once again the Havenite navies already have a blueprint of what is needed to change to a wartime footprint - and plans to focus further portions of the economy to the war effort if necessary (you know the next several steps were planned even if no one enabled them) While this isn't an impediable hill, it takes time to develop, and works in fits and starts. (look at the time it took to redesign the French 75 for American service or the MG 34/43 to .30 Caliber.) The GA already has working plans.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by tlb   » Mon Feb 24, 2020 5:53 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:They be FUBARed!

tlb wrote:When you say "they' are you answering the question posed by the thread, so you mean the Manties are screwed?

TFLYTSNBN wrote:Correct.

The RMN needs to maintain a tech advantage until everyone in the SL is over 8th Fleet's visit to Sol system. Keep in mind that a few SL systems have economies bigger than Manticore all by themselves.

In addition the GA has samples, etc of everything that the SLN had under development. If the Malign does steal tech and pass it on the the Solarian league they will still have to debug and implement it.

Outside of Sol itself, how many of the core worlds are angry at what happened? Shocked certainly, but there is going to be considerable energy expended in creating the new League and understanding the changing circumstances. I do expect a level of anger , but hope there are also drives to understand the defects in their previous government (I may be expecting too much rationality).
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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by kzt   » Mon Feb 24, 2020 7:10 pm

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Q: What do you think that every successful Haven and Manticoran officer did during the 5 years between the war?

A; Wrote a book about their experiences. Helped film moves about their experiences. Helped design games about their experiences.

Q: What do you think they will do now that the war is over?
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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Feb 24, 2020 9:39 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:
BTW, I've ben meaning to asks you: what do you expand IAE to? There's no "IAE" in the wiki. In my mind, I expand it to "Imperial Andermani Empire", but "Imperial Empire" is kind of redundant, isn't it?

Unless somehow "Imperial" is the organisation of the state and "Empire" is the form of government. But then what is an "Imperial" organisation? As an organisation, I could see a "Federative Empire", where the Empire is organised into multiple states with certain levels of autonomy and a local government for each under a central, imperial government (like the SEM seems to be).




I get carried away. It would be the Andermani Empire or the Imperial Andermani Navy (like the IJN in WWII) Sorry :)
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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by Brigade XO   » Mon Feb 24, 2020 10:08 pm

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The GA is now in posession of everything (we presume) that Technodyne had supplied to the SLN up to that point including samples, working weapons & equipment, proposals, everything. So the Ga has a lot of stuff to wade through and digest.

Somebody has got to come around to wondering just how Technodyne was generating all this stuff and selling it - in various direct streams- the the SLN and why none of it was showing up elcewhere. That elcewhere being conspicuously only present at Monica and then the PRN in Excile that hired out to turn Torch into a lifeless ball.

Maya has been the benficuary of the Erwhon receipt of the Manti Tech prior to the breakdown in deplomacy due to the High Ridge Administration etc. Still, there is no indication that any of that information is getting to the Alignment from either Maya or Erwhon. Erwhon may be building the ships but Maya is using them more receently---in combat---and had practical experience againt the Cataphracts.

The Alignment has hopes and expectations, as per the discussions we have seen, of working forward from the point of : We know they can do it, we just don't know how and with what equpimpent yet!

As far as the majority of the SL not being quite as unhappy with Manticore and the GA after Harrington showed up at Sol, well, that depends. There are going to be a whole lot of politicians who will want to use the undeclaired war as a way to power and influence. On the other hand, the SL bureaucracy was the agent that was manipulated into that problem and they were about two fingers shy of getting their hands around various Emergency Powers because they screwed up and would have put direct taxes on the League Members. That doesn't quite count the whole Operation Buccaneer plan which was clearly intended to cow Members as well as Independents into falling into line. If, and it's a big if, the League Member Worlds want to fully address the rot and lack of control that has developed over time within the League structure then this is the time to do it.

There is (althoug the loudest screamers who see a way to power and treasure won't like it) more than an even chance that most of the League Member Systems will see what happend at Sol for what it was: Manticore and Haven showing increadably massive restraint with "only" destroying every military ship, installation and essentialy all of the non-habitat orbital structures in the system and letting the military evacuate ALL of thier people. Ok, that was a very dire threat if the SLN didn't stand down and the GA had to go to the next THREE major League Systems and do the same thing - and repeat as nessary to get compliance with their terms- but the GA certainly showed restraint vs what the SLN was running with Opperation Buccaneer and the attacks leading up to Fillerta attacking the Manticore Home System

Essentialy: Fix your dam League and put effective controls into it so something like the Mandarins and OFS can't ooze out of the rocks again. Manticore doesn't want to kill every Star Nation in the League, they really only want not to be attacked.
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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:25 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:The GA is now in posession of everything (we presume) that Technodyne had supplied to the SLN up to that point including samples, working weapons & equipment, proposals, everything. So the Ga has a lot of stuff to wade through and digest.

Somebody has got to come around to wondering just how Technodyne was generating all this stuff and selling it - in various direct streams- the the SLN and why none of it was showing up elcewhere. That elcewhere being conspicuously only present at Monica and then the PRN in Excile that hired out to turn Torch into a lifeless ball.


Agreed, and since the information comes from the SL, it will be easy for the GA investigators to point the Ghost Hunters to where those discrepancies show up, withoutu having to prove that they didn't alter the data. The Ghost Hunters will have access to the originals. I expect the MAlign will have backdated some documentation to make it look like TIY invented most of it, but the pace at which they had to push innovations through will have made them overlook something. And then of course there will be no scientists who can remember researching the topics.

We know from Filareta that the new Cataphracts came from Mesa, not from a TIY facility or an SLN depot, so the actual hardware will not be easy to backtrack. The false leads planted in the TIY databases may point to further spies, though.

Maya has been the benficuary of the Erwhon receipt of the Manti Tech prior to the breakdown in deplomacy due to the High Ridge Administration etc. Still, there is no indication that any of that information is getting to the Alignment from either Maya or Erwhon. Erwhon may be building the ships but Maya is using them more receently---in combat---and had practical experience againt the Cataphracts.


No, they clearly didn't. Barregos and Luis's plan was to tell their superiors just enough to make it look they were getting something to justify investment in Erewhon, but not enough to actually make anyone come look. Since those were SL reports, I imagine the MAlign had access to all.

But if the MAlign had known just how powerful or how far along Carlucci was in building the Mayan forces, they'd never have sent the PRH-in-Exile to Torch. The defence agreement was public. Fighting those upgraded ships was a bad idea and they'd have known it.

Since they didn't, we can conclude OpSec held.

As far as the majority of the SL not being quite as unhappy with Manticore and the GA after Harrington showed up at Sol, well, that depends. There are going to be a whole lot of politicians who will want to use the undeclaired war as a way to power and influence. On the other hand, the SL bureaucracy was the agent that was manipulated into that problem and they were about two fingers shy of getting their hands around various Emergency Powers because they screwed up and would have put direct taxes on the League Members. That doesn't quite count the whole Operation Buccaneer plan which was clearly intended to cow Members as well as Independents into falling into line. If, and it's a big if, the League Member Worlds want to fully address the rot and lack of control that has developed over time within the League structure then this is the time to do it.

There is (althoug the loudest screamers who see a way to power and treasure won't like it) more than an even chance that most of the League Member Systems will see what happend at Sol for what it was: Manticore and Haven showing increadably massive restraint with "only" destroying every military ship, installation and essentialy all of the non-habitat orbital structures in the system and letting the military evacuate ALL of thier people. Ok, that was a very dire threat if the SLN didn't stand down and the GA had to go to the next THREE major League Systems and do the same thing - and repeat as nessary to get compliance with their terms- but the GA certainly showed restraint vs what the SLN was running with Opperation Buccaneer and the attacks leading up to Fillerta attacking the Manticore Home System

Essentialy: Fix your dam League and put effective controls into it so something like the Mandarins and OFS can't ooze out of the rocks again. Manticore doesn't want to kill every Star Nation in the League, they really only want not to be attacked.


Indeed, we've been told that opinion "beyond Kuiper" was quite different than that in the Sol system itself. The Mandarins did spend some time manipulating public opinion, but what really counted was the one on Sol. And since that system's economy is now destroyed, there's not much of a chance that the people living there will see the GA with kind eyes.

But beyond the Kuiper belt? The other core worlds weren't affected by war fighting itself, their industries are intact. We've discussed how much they must have felt the war and conclusion I remember is that they mostly felt Operation Lancoön, both phases, which reduced interstellar commerce. Mind you, I doubt that any planet depended on interstellar commerce for basic needs, but some items (especially luxury ones) may have become scarce, driving their prices up. The sectors most likely affected were the export ones, again of those rare and luxury items as well as high-tech ones that aren't usually made everywhere.

So there's going to be some resentment. But it's manageable, especially if Beowulf and Hypatia show an economic boom and other systems follow their lead. The GA can choose to invest in those planets, thereby influencing and reversing public opinion.
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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by Fox2!   » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:27 pm

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kzt wrote:Q: What do you think that every successful Haven and Manticoran officer did during the 5 years between the war?

A; Wrote a book about their experiences. Helped film moves about their experiences. Helped design games about their experiences.

Q: What do you think they will do now that the war is over?


"Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book."

Attributed to George Patton after defeating the Afrika Corps in battle.
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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by Fox2!   » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:33 pm

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Fox2! wrote:
kzt wrote:Q: What do you think that every successful Haven and Manticoran officer did during the 5 years between the war?

A; Wrote a book about their experiences. Helped film moves about their experiences. Helped design games about their experiences.

Q: What do you think they will do now that the war is over?


"Rommel, you magnificent bastard, I read your book."

Attributed to George Patton after defeating the Afrika Corps in battle.


Why is it that the definitive book on Armor was written by an Infantry officer, and the definitive book on Infantry tactics was written by an Armor (Panzer) Officer?
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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Feb 24, 2020 11:36 pm

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Fox2! wrote:Why is it that the definitive book on Armor was written by an Infantry officer, and the definitive book on Infantry tactics was written by an Armor (Panzer) Officer?


Why do we drive on the parkway and park on the driveway?

Why does the US Postal Service deliver mail and the Royal Mail deliver post?

:D
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Re: How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is g
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Tue Feb 25, 2020 6:34 am

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kzt wrote:Q: What do you think that every successful Haven and Manticoran officer did during the 5 years between the war?

A; Wrote a book about their experiences. Helped film moves about their experiences. Helped design games about their experiences.

Q: What do you think they will do now that the war is over?

Pretty sure the Havenites were busy fighting a massive multi-front civil war in that period. Maybe a few of the less politically reliable ones had leisure time, though.
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