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Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.

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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by saber964   » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:28 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--
Theemile wrote:At the moment, Silesia's status as a protectorate is a stumbling block to them building military hardware.
You're also right that the status as a Protectorate is going to be a stumbling block. Those same entrepreneurs should take a page from Van Dort's book and push for full membership into the Empire. They will also have now two years of economic and social progress in Talbott to convince the Silesian voters.

I even have a slogan for them: "Sillies shouldn't be silly"
I thought Silesia has been parcelled up to become 50% par if the SEM and 50% Andermani. So presumably EVERY system will need to ratify a Talbott-like Constitution within a relatively short period of time in order to attract the proper investments, etc., get the civil rights built up, etc.

The harder part is that the Sillies have centuries worth of corruption to root out, where the Talbotters seem to at least be somewhat free of as much internecine piracy, etc. So Mark Sarnow's merry bands of roving troubleshooters have a LOT of work to do. Yes/No?

Look at the differences between Silesia and Talbott. Silesia has a military governor backed by a civilian advisor while Talbott has a civilian governor backed by a military advisor. Talbot probably has some localized corruption but not systematic and institutionalized like Silesia has.
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by tlb   » Sat Feb 22, 2020 7:49 pm

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Theemile wrote:At the moment, Silesia's status as a protectorate is a stumbling block to them building military hardware.
You're also right that the status as a Protectorate is going to be a stumbling block. Those same entrepreneurs should take a page from Van Dort's book and push for full membership into the Empire. They will also have now two years of economic and social progress in Talbott to convince the Silesian voters.

I even have a slogan for them: "Sillies shouldn't be silly"

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping-- I thought Silesia has been parcelled up to become 50% par if the SEM and 50% Andermani. So presumably EVERY system will need to ratify a Talbott-like Constitution within a relatively short period of time in order to attract the proper investments, etc., get the civil rights built up, etc.

The harder part is that the Sillies have centuries worth of corruption to root out, where the Talbotters seem to at least be somewhat free of as much internecine piracy, etc. So Mark Sarnow's merry bands of roving troubleshooters have a LOT of work to do. Yes/No?

saber964 wrote:Look at the differences between Silesia and Talbott. Silesia has a military governor backed by a civilian advisor while Talbott has a civilian governor backed by a military advisor. Talbot probably has some localized corruption but not systematic and institutionalized like Silesia has.

But isn't the civilian versus military distinction because Talbot clamored to get in, while Silesia was just presented with an accomplished fact and told to deal with it. So getting adjustments made is Silesia is a matter of bribery backed by force.
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by Captain Golding   » Tue Feb 25, 2020 11:43 am

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tlb wrote:
Theemile wrote:At the moment, Silesia's status as a protectorate is a stumbling block to them building military hardware.
You're also right that the status as a Protectorate is going to be a stumbling block. Those same entrepreneurs should take a page from Van Dort's book and push for full membership into the Empire. They will also have now two years of economic and social progress in Talbott to convince the Silesian voters.

I even have a slogan for them: "Sillies shouldn't be silly"

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping-- I thought Silesia has been parcelled up to become 50% par if the SEM and 50% Andermani. So presumably EVERY system will need to ratify a Talbott-like Constitution within a relatively short period of time in order to attract the proper investments, etc., get the civil rights built up, etc.

The harder part is that the Sillies have centuries worth of corruption to root out, where the Talbotters seem to at least be somewhat free of as much internecine piracy, etc. So Mark Sarnow's merry bands of roving troubleshooters have a LOT of work to do. Yes/No?

saber964 wrote:Look at the differences between Silesia and Talbott. Silesia has a military governor backed by a civilian advisor while Talbott has a civilian governor backed by a military advisor. Talbot probably has some localized corruption but not systematic and institutionalized like Silesia has.

But isn't the civilian versus military distinction because Talbot clamored to get in, while Silesia was just presented with an accomplished fact and told to deal with it. So getting adjustments made is Silesia is a matter of bribery backed by force.


Judging by the different planets visited in Midshipman Harrington I would say that the Silesian goverments actually varied a bit more than this implies. Between "Local" elected goverments, Conf. Appointee's and military officers the actual webs of power varied due to politics and corruption.

Note that pre integration the RTU was viewed with suspicion and in some places viewed as a source of corruption because of the way it was strong arming some planets.
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:35 pm

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Manticore had a long history with Silesia and, yes, the various system governments were differnt in their capabilities or willingness to do anything about piracy and corruption. What we saw was usualy the people who were engaged at some level with either corruption or piracy but very little of places that were more average. Average being that they did a reasonalby good job managing the system, that they- the governmental leaders etc- did not condone or get involved with pirates and would take such actions to prevent pirates from operating in or near their systems if they had the capasity to do so.
I got the impression that both the Alignment and various corrupt elements of the SL bureaucracy and business people were involved in the mess that Silesia had become. Not the active intervention the Alignment tried in Talbot- very different situation well along in the timelines and expansion of Manticoe- but greaseing the way for problems and flow of money to their respective homes and companies.
The Silesian Confederacy was an attempt to address the problems with pirates and the businesses and governments (or parts of governments) that were in partnerships with them. It also was an attempt to bring the laws and regulations of the various systems into some level of compatibility between the systems involved. If your trade and customs regulations agree, it's easier for commerce to flow and more difficult for people to get involved in the shady end of enforcing regulations, that being charging fees [bridbes and "gifts"] to expedite moving things in and out of systems.
They never could quite get that right. They appeared to try but the ConFedNavy wasn't getting the cooperation it needed and was hampered by too many people leaking information to the Navy's targets or generaly assisting pirates and smugglers and people in the genetic trade industry to avoid getting caught.

The RTU was a differnt approch than trying to set up a League or Confederation but it's purposes was quite the same if built on a funtioning commercial operation. While Silesia wasn't actualy being menaced -yet- by OFS, the Talbot Quadrant was. It was close enough with enough systems that were getting interesting for OFS. RTU was also pushing for anti-piracy activity from the systems it was involved with. I believe some of the RTU ships were armed. In that aggressive negotiations and pressure that RTU was putting on systems, it was also driving for more uniform customs and trade regulations which would have the benefit of supporting business at the same time as makeing some things clearly illegal (enforcing is a seperate matter along with corruption) to do.

Silesia continued to get worse and worse so far though the series until the Andermani Empire and Manticore found themselves, having already been cooperating on other things like not wanting PRH out there being pirates and commerce raiders, decided that the most practical solution was to divide Silesia between them and then force the issues of government, anti-piracy and corruption on each half by annexing them. Manticore came to this partialy because of 1st Trevor's Star-San Martin petition to join the Empire and then the Talbott Cluser systems that did the same thing. Annexing half of Silesia would have the same effect of allowing the actual imposing or Empire wide laws and enforcement (and benifits) there instead of suffering the ongoing necessity of significant commerce protection with the often brutal lack of cooperation if not outright opposition by many local system governments. The Andermani seem to have decided that it would also dampen difficulties with Manticore along with giving the AE what it expected to do eventualy- expand and take over a signifcant part of Silesia.
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by tlb   » Tue Feb 25, 2020 12:59 pm

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Captain Golding wrote:Judging by the different planets visited in Midshipman Harrington I would say that the Silesian goverments actually varied a bit more than this implies. Between "Local" elected goverments, Conf. Appointee's and military officers the actual webs of power varied due to politics and corruption.

Note that pre integration the RTU was viewed with suspicion and in some places viewed as a source of corruption because of the way it was strong arming some planets.

Would the operational instructions of the RMN make it more likely that the ships would visit those planetary systems that have problems with corruption and piracy? The idea being to let everyone know that the RMN is vigilant. There would still need to visit where corruption and piracy were less well known, but it would not be as high a priority. If so, a junior officer's observations would be biased.
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Feb 25, 2020 1:58 pm

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tlb wrote:
Captain Golding wrote:Judging by the different planets visited in Midshipman Harrington I would say that the Silesian goverments actually varied a bit more than this implies. Between "Local" elected goverments, Conf. Appointee's and military officers the actual webs of power varied due to politics and corruption.

Note that pre integration the RTU was viewed with suspicion and in some places viewed as a source of corruption because of the way it was strong arming some planets.

Would the operational instructions of the RMN make it more likely that the ships would visit those planetary systems that have problems with corruption and piracy? The idea being to let everyone know that the RMN is vigilant. There would still need to visit where corruption and piracy were less well known, but it would not be as high a priority. If so, a junior officer's observations would be biased.
IIRC, prior to uprating the threat to the Talbott sector, Admiral Sarnow was being given the highest priority for the Rolands and Sag-Cs for just that reason... because of the need to sit on and thwack the system governments that attempted to continue with business as usual. I think RFC intended the decision to be something like a best-possible version of the EU annexing the corrupted countries to their Southeast, then trying to clean up their systems, or some best possible version of the United States annexing southward and having to clean out the chicanery and bribery infestations common to many of the Central American countries and economies. Not sure what the early-21st century equivalent of a Sag-C expeditionary force would be...
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by Theemile   » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:01 pm

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tlb wrote:
Captain Golding wrote:Judging by the different planets visited in Midshipman Harrington I would say that the Silesian goverments actually varied a bit more than this implies. Between "Local" elected goverments, Conf. Appointee's and military officers the actual webs of power varied due to politics and corruption.

Note that pre integration the RTU was viewed with suspicion and in some places viewed as a source of corruption because of the way it was strong arming some planets.

Would the operational instructions of the RMN make it more likely that the ships would visit those planetary systems that have problems with corruption and piracy? The idea being to let everyone know that the RMN is vigilant. There would still need to visit where corruption and piracy were less well known, but it would not be as high a priority. If so, a junior officer's observations would be biased.


From the backstories in SITS, the corruption has been going on for centuries. Yes, the various planets are structured culturally different, but a few things stood out.

1) overall, the culture is closer to some middle east countries - where the person's official pay is not intended to be their paycheck. The word is "Backsheesh" - a system where bribery and paybacks is the official way to get things done. You bribe an official to get an approval, part of that money is given to the local police to allow the process to happen, part goes to the official's boss, and part goes to the worker who does the job, to bump you up in the work queue. The faster/better you want something done - the more you pay. In reality it is not bribery in the Western sense, because everyone knows it is happening, it has official approval, it is part of the approved political process, and it has been this way for generations upon generations.

2) Some system in Silesia is always under revolt - that is right, for several hundred years, just about every system at one time or another was in active revolt or fighting revolutionary forces. Supposedly, the central government rarely knew about the issue until the local/sector government had put it down, or the planet had declared independence for several years and had to be drug back into the fold. And the Eastern 1/2 of the confederacy (the 1/2 Manticore controls), was the worst.

3) An entire government was slaughtered. Yes, an entire Silly govt was killed in their sleep, along with several supporting governors on other planets, after a reform minded president was elected into office and started actually keeping campaign promises. Why, the corrupt forces didn't like the winds of change and decided to stop it and send a message to all. thus the replacement govt repealed the reform legislation and went back to the old ways.

4) An entire squadron of newly built Battlecruisers, disappeared before getting delivered to the Navy. Called in front of the Sillesian Legislature "a Clearical Error", 8 Silensia Class Battlecruisers disappeared, as did all the paperwork surrounding them. It is unknown if any actually got built, as almost all the documents relating to them is damaged or missing, but the armamants were actually procurred - about 1 BC's worth was discovered in the hands of the LIF (Libau Independance Force).

5) Most pirate ships were actually Navy ships. Either from the main SCN or a planetary defense force, most Silesian pirates use former Silesian Navy ships. Not old ones either - most of the ships just disappear from active roles one day, and no one questions it. Some have been traded from one sdf to another so many times no one is sure where it went. Other times ships are still on the official role, while an unofficial crew plies the unfriendly skies. Some, of course are "reclaimed" by a legitimate breaker, only to see fresh life, while others are newly built from one of the ~25 planetary shipyards spread throughout the Confederacy.

There is an undercurrent of corruption at all levels, and there is always someone ready to stand up and try something new or turn a blind eye for a buck. It has been said that Sarnow "Lives in Interesting times" and has had to remove replacement governments several times because they have not gotten the message that the old ways are truly over. Silesia has been under IAN or Manty control for just over 3 years - it takes time to change processes many generations deeps. Sarnow disbanded the SCN and the planetary SDFs, and has hundreds of ships under his control for a reason - he is still busy swatting flys.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by Theemile   » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:09 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:
tlb wrote:Would the operational instructions of the RMN make it more likely that the ships would visit those planetary systems that have problems with corruption and piracy? The idea being to let everyone know that the RMN is vigilant. There would still need to visit where corruption and piracy were less well known, but it would not be as high a priority. If so, a junior officer's observations would be biased.
IIRC, prior to uprating the threat to the Talbott sector, Admiral Sarnow was being given the highest priority for the Rolands and Sag-Cs for just that reason... because of the need to sit on and thwack the system governments that attempted to continue with business as usual. I think RFC intended the decision to be something like a best-possible version of the EU annexing the corrupted countries to their Southeast, then trying to clean up their systems, or some best possible version of the United States annexing southward and having to clean out the chicanery and bribery infestations common to many of the Central American countries and economies. Not sure what the early-21st century equivalent of a Sag-C expeditionary force would be...


In addition, Sarnow got virtually all 48 of the new Kammerling System Control Cruisers with the Marine Battalions. You don't get 45-50 new ships designed to drop heavy marine forces assigned to a relative backwater during a war if you don't have a need for them. Manticore got ~34 planets from the Silesian breakup, just the Kammerlings represent 1.4 ships per planet, or more ships than Kumalo had in his Talbott OOB in March 1920 pd.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by Theemile   » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:21 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--
Theemile wrote:At the moment, Silesia's status as a protectorate is a stumbling block to them building military hardware.
You're also right that the status as a Protectorate is going to be a stumbling block. Those same entrepreneurs should take a page from Van Dort's book and push for full membership into the Empire. They will also have now two years of economic and social progress in Talbott to convince the Silesian voters.

I even have a slogan for them: "Sillies shouldn't be silly"
I thought Silesia has been parcelled up to become 50% par if the SEM and 50% Andermani. So presumably EVERY system will need to ratify a Talbott-like Constitution within a relatively short period of time in order to attract the proper investments, etc., get the civil rights built up, etc.

The harder part is that the Sillies have centuries worth of corruption to root out, where the Talbotters seem to at least be somewhat free of as much internecine piracy, etc. So Mark Sarnow's merry bands of roving troubleshooters have a LOT of work to do. Yes/No?


Manticore got about 50% of Silesia - about 34 planets in the S/E half closest to Basilisk. There is an image in HoS of the new Empire of Manticore, and it shows the locations of the stars in Silesia under Manty control - notably, the Chalice and the Silesia system stand out. Below is the link to an expanded image from that map, and major planetary names have been marked by overlaying that map from HoS on top of the Silesian map from SITS update 2.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/18xdQHv7udTiUeN3MkEMU1OqJQoLErsTd/view?usp=sharing

let me know if you have issues accessing it.

Notably, most of the industral centers are in the West, under Andermani Control. Also, Manticore's holdings are no where near Marsh and it's Fleetbase, which sit alongside the trade route from the Anderman Empire and Silesia.
Last edited by Theemile on Tue Feb 25, 2020 3:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by tlb   » Tue Feb 25, 2020 2:22 pm

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tlb wrote:Would the operational instructions of the RMN make it more likely that the ships would visit those planetary systems that have problems with corruption and piracy? The idea being to let everyone know that the RMN is vigilant. There would still need to visit where corruption and piracy were less well known, but it would not be as high a priority. If so, a junior officer's observations would be biased.
SharkHunter wrote:IIRC, prior to uprating the threat to the Talbott sector, Admiral Sarnow was being given the highest priority for the Rolands and Sag-Cs for just that reason... because of the need to sit on and thwack the system governments that attempted to continue with business as usual. I think RFC intended the decision to be something like a best-possible version of the EU annexing the corrupted countries to their Southeast, then trying to clean up their systems, or some best possible version of the United States annexing southward and having to clean out the chicanery and bribery infestations common to many of the Central American countries and economies. Not sure what the early-21st century equivalent of a Sag-C expeditionary force would be...

Theemile wrote:In addition, Sarnow got virtually all 48 of the new Kammerling System Control Cruisers with the Marine Battalions. You don't get 45-50 new ships designed to drop heavy marine forces assigned to a relative backwater during a war if you don't have a need for them. Manticore got ~34 planets from the Silesian breakup, just the Kammerlings represent 1.4 ships per planet, or more ships than Kumalo had in his Talbott OOB in March 1920 pd.

Actually I was thinking of the time before the annexation when Midshipman or Lieutenant Harrington was on her early cruises; more like the information that Theemile provided from SITS. During those times would the routes be biased toward the worst spots, or from what SITS states was it so bad everywhere that the routing could be arbitrary?
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