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Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.

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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by Theemile   » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:38 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Agreed, perfect is the enemy of the good. I think it's likely that the RMN will have repair yards and local component sourcing in both Talbot and Silesia within a few years. We discussed in the dispersed yards thread about Talbott that it didn't make sense for the RMN to build the big ships anywhere but in Manticore, but smaller ships and LACs may make sense in both.

But that's a few years out. The question here is whether Silesia has anything to contribute to the immediate needs post-Yawata Strike. And I think the answer is no: first, the Protectorate is still not a full member of the Star Empire, so technology sharing mustn't be happening, even the shipyards are now in Manticoran hands. Second, though he may have brought investment from the cartels and the government, I doubt any of it included expanding the existing shipyards to handle mil-spec HW or that it was in sufficient quantity before the strike to be an asset in rebuilding. As someone posted up-thread, the conversion required in those yards is going to be damn close to rebuilding from scratch in Manticore, where fewer personnel hurdles can be found.

As I posted in the other thread, I think Talbott and Silesian entrepreneurs with sufficient long-term view will be investing in local production of civilian ships, taking advantage of tax incentives and technology transfer. They should keep an eye out to making military hardware if the RMN changes its mind, but they shouldn't count on it.

One advantage Silesia has over Talbott is that it actually has warship designs of its own. The SCN designs were crappy and out of date, but with a little bit of Manticore updates, they can make effective export versions that wouldn't threaten the GA, yet be effective units for everyone else (besides the League). I don't think there's anything stopping them from building like Carlucci Industries in Erewhon. They probably won't be building wallers because there is no Maya Sector nearby to buy them, but DDs like the Sharpshooter class, CLs and CAs? Sure.

BTW, one advantage Talbott has over Silesia is its proximity to Verge nations that will want to follow Maya's path, found a regional entity for mutual defence and build a decent navy. The newly-liberated Madras Sector, under the leadership of the Kingdom of Meyers comes to mind. But distance or even travel time might not mean much. If Silesian shipyards can get their act together sooner, they can start competing with Carlucci and out-competing Technodyne.


At the moment, Silesia's status as a protectorate is a stumbling block to them building military hardware. The entire SCN was shut down and every planetary SDF lost their navy once the Andermani and Manticore took over. I would think all the current orders of warships in shipyards were ordered to be suspended and broken up. Given the timeline I doubt the SCN ships were broken up, but are all sitting at a fleet ankerage somewhere, awaiting their fate under the watchful eye of several LAC squadrons.

Talbotters are Manty Citizens, Silesians are not - yet. Everything is under military control, no one is doing anything in shipyards that is not approved by the manty govt.

If anything, the smart, major Silesian shipyards and building modules or sub assemblies for Manticore's stations, while smaller yards are picking up smaller contracts the bigger yards normally would do. Ships still need to be maintained, and Manticore isn't there to do it anymore, so Silesian yards are probably busy picking up maintenance duties for passing freighters.

With Manticorian yards being out of the picture, and being rebuilt, i doubt any shipyard in the Havenite quadrant has spare capacity right now. If they do, they are fools.
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RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:42 pm

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I think the major problem with building in Silesia is that it just makes more sense to "buy space" to produce hulls from the Andermani. The problem is that only Manticore had the micro-fusion drives already in both missiles and RDs, so the process of bringing the Andy SD(P)s up to spec in AAC was that they couldn't just ship off a bunch of parts and tech manuals and say "do this".

Let's give a "nano-farm" the ability to rebuild the RMN itself from a limited number of nano-machines and the programming instructions are uploaded from Weyland, and sent off in a "yard ship" accompanied by mining ships to blast the asteroids into crude matter for consumption and reforging into useful metal bits. Meanwhile, another class of mining ships is gathering up the materials for all the super-ceramics, yadda yadda yadda. You're still going to needa buttload of miners, program controllers, and starship assembly folks to even build the slips to build the ships.

So how long before there's enough nanobots able to make all the various nanobots able to make the next size up micro machines... up to the scale of the major assemblers required to make a military starship. You still need more pre-trained humans than currently exist at the right training level in the entire GA, perhaps even the Solarian League. We know this because the Mandarins themselves know they've got the industrial capacity to build enough yards to eventually replace the Manticoran "bottoms", but not enough to overcome the advantage given by the wormholes in a timely manner.

Maybe a better example would be "how long would it take to restore the United States military-building capacity to the point where it could rebuild a WWII armed-force level?" let alone a modern one. And at that point, what kind of weapons mix do you build fo maximum and 5 continent rapid deployment? (I'm including Australia as a perfectly Allied force, and excluding Antarctica as useful for military purposes).

...while simulataneously having to train that many welders, ship and armor assemblers, etc.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by SharkHunter   » Wed Feb 19, 2020 5:48 pm

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Related to my last post -- I'm not saying "rebuild WWII ships and tanks", by the way -- whatever is built would be the best mass-produce-able versions of weapons we have now, because some enemy suddenly has the capability to match the "allies" in terms of non-Nuclear force projection and starts to use it in a way where "rebuilding" has to take place first like in nearly all of 1942- maybe through to mid '43 when the US military production really started to overcome the Axis powers' ability to keep up.

That's the analagous hole that Manticore is in post-Yawata strike. But in this author's universe, the RMN military reputation has built up enough goodwill that instead of being consumed by the remaining -powers, Haven, Grayson, the Andermani, and even Erewhon/Maya stand shoulder to shoulder against all enemies known and unknown, foreign and domestic, etc.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by Jonathan_S   » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:27 pm

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:
But even if they could, with a better set of plans, build something every bit as good as a brand new Nevada-class BC the RMN of 1922 has no use for something so out of date. In most ways that'd be inferior to the RMN designs of 17 years before.

Sure. And so they will wait for perfect ships because perfection in a half decade will surely help solve their small ship problem that exists today due to their deciding to police another 5-10,000 systems.

Good luck with that plan.
Pretty sure their plan is just to not actively police those systems. All they told the League was that if they see a SLN ship out there they'll treat it like a pirate.

But by and large they didn't agree to provide security to those systems that had been oppressed by OFS (with their FF backing) and certainly didn't agree to protect the ones further out in the verge beyond the old sphere of OFS interference.


If they hear about EE violations, SLN ships where they don't belong, or suffer too much piracy in places too valuable to abandon, then I'm sure they'll put together an expeditionary force to make their displeasure known. But the League didn't seriously try to patrol 5,000 - 10,000 systems and there's not much reason for Manticore to try either.

They may provide some short term security to major trading partners within the core or shell that want time to stand up their own SDF (no longer relying on the intimidation factor of the SLN). But what's left of the SLN is free to provide all the protection they want to systems within the Core (have to double check about the Shell). And most of the verge has been, and remains, too poor and too far from financial backers and fences for pirates to profitably prey upon them.


So I don't see a major need to start rolling off 4th rate obsolete, high manpower, designs for a patrolling role that the RMN hasn't actually committed to.
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by kzt   » Wed Feb 19, 2020 8:32 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Pretty sure their plan is just to not actively police those systems. All they told the League was that if they see a SLN ship out there they'll treat it like a pirate.

But by and large they didn't agree to provide security to those systems that had been oppressed by OFS (with their FF backing) and certainly didn't agree to protect the ones further out in the verge beyond the old sphere of OFS interference.

Well, in that case it will get very ugly very fast. And guess who will get blamed when terrible things happen after the 10,000+ ships of FF leave?

And you know what? They will be right.

If you fire all the cops in Chicago because you think they are largely corrupt thugs (a position I could agree with) and tell the city, county and state that if you catch anyone trying to enforce the law you'll shoot them, what do you think is the likely result after you congratulate yourself and leave the citizens to solve their own problems?
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by Brigade XO   » Wed Feb 19, 2020 10:18 pm

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kzt wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Pretty sure their plan is just to not actively police those systems. All they told the League was that if they see a SLN ship out there they'll treat it like a pirate.

But by and large they didn't agree to provide security to those systems that had been oppressed by OFS (with their FF backing) and certainly didn't agree to protect the ones further out in the verge beyond the old sphere of OFS interference.

Well, in that case it will get very ugly very fast. And guess who will get blamed when terrible things happen after the 10,000+ ships of FF leave?

And you know what? They will be right.

If you fire all the cops in Chicago because you think they are largely corrupt thugs (a position I could agree with) and tell the city, county and state that if you catch anyone trying to enforce the law you'll shoot them, what do you think is the likely result after you congratulate yourself and leave the citizens to solve their own problems?


What you will get eventualy is a wide range of local solutions to people who have had enough. Some of that will be criminals cutting out territory and killing both police and their criminal rivals. On the other hand, you are going to end up with vigilantee justice either by individuals or groups who decide or are driven to the conclusion that they have to do something even if it involves killing.
Now, for a planitary system acting in their own defence -at least in their own system- that doesn't cause too much in the way of problems. For the inhabitants of a town or city it can go very badly if someone with a yearning for power then takes control of the vigilantees and set us their own government.
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:12 am

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Theemile wrote:At the moment, Silesia's status as a protectorate is a stumbling block to them building military hardware.
[snip]
With Manticorian yards being out of the picture, and being rebuilt, i doubt any shipyard in the Havenite quadrant has spare capacity right now. If they do, they are fools.


Agreed, which is why the Silesians should be pitching in. I repeat: entrepreneurs with sufficient long-term vision should be investing. They should be taking the opportunity of the corruption being cleaned out of the system, which used to drag production down and costs up, and begin to compete on level.

You're also right that the status as a Protectorate is going to be a stumbling block. Those same entrepreneurs should take a page from Van Dort's book and push for full membership into the Empire. They will also have now two years of economic and social progress in Talbott to convince the Silesian voters.

I even have a slogan for them: "Sillies shouldn't be silly"
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by SharkHunter   » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:47 pm

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--snipping--
Theemile wrote:At the moment, Silesia's status as a protectorate is a stumbling block to them building military hardware.
You're also right that the status as a Protectorate is going to be a stumbling block. Those same entrepreneurs should take a page from Van Dort's book and push for full membership into the Empire. They will also have now two years of economic and social progress in Talbott to convince the Silesian voters.

I even have a slogan for them: "Sillies shouldn't be silly"
I thought Silesia has been parcelled up to become 50% par if the SEM and 50% Andermani. So presumably EVERY system will need to ratify a Talbott-like Constitution within a relatively short period of time in order to attract the proper investments, etc., get the civil rights built up, etc.

The harder part is that the Sillies have centuries worth of corruption to root out, where the Talbotters seem to at least be somewhat free of as much internecine piracy, etc. So Mark Sarnow's merry bands of roving troubleshooters have a LOT of work to do. Yes/No?
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by kzt   » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:05 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:
The harder part is that the Sillies have centuries worth of corruption to root out, where the Talbotters seem to at least be somewhat free of as much internecine piracy, etc. So Mark Sarnow's merry bands of roving troubleshooters have a LOT of work to do. Yes/No?

Oh, I’m sure it will work fine. Its easy to turn this around. After all, we have a democratic and effectively functioning afghanistan after just a few years, just like we were promised in 2002 and 2009... :roll:
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Re: Warship Construction in the Silesian Protectorate.
Post by n7axw   » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:52 pm

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kzt wrote:
SharkHunter wrote:
The harder part is that the Sillies have centuries worth of corruption to root out, where the Talbotters seem to at least be somewhat free of as much internecine piracy, etc. So Mark Sarnow's merry bands of roving troubleshooters have a LOT of work to do. Yes/No?

Oh, I’m sure it will work fine. Its easy to turn this around. After all, we have a democratic and effectively functioning afghanistan after just a few years, just like we were promised in 2002 and 2009... :roll:


Isn't it amazing how well it all turns out when we take it upon ourselves to solve problems for other people that they should be solving for themselves...

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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