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Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?

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Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:40 pm

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Why no HMS Fearless in the pantheon of Saganami-C cruisers? or whatever the post Sag-C heavy cruiser becomes...We never read that CA-286 was repaired, and it is on the List of Honor. We also don't read that it's a museum ship at Grayson or any of the like.

Wouldn't it make sense for HMS-Fearless to always be the newest and most powerful CA in the Royal Manticoran Navy? like Nike is for the battlecruiser class?

So you're designing the darn thing. Whazzit look like, capabilities, deployment plans, etc.?
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Re: Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by zuluwiz   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:18 pm

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I would think the next Fearless would be a battlecruiser. The MWW seems to like battlecruisers. The firstFearless of which we have been told was a LIGHT cruiser, so obviously the names can go up or down the ranks. For that matter, has there been a new Warlock built?
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Re: Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by SharkHunter   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:40 pm

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zuluwiz wrote:I would think the next Fearless would be a battlecruiser. The MWW seems to like battlecruisers. The firstFearless of which we have been told was a LIGHT cruiser, so obviously the names can go up or down the ranks. For that matter, has there been a new Warlock built?


Part of it is likely that Hexapuma and Warlock, etc. are much more recent adds to the List of Honor-- and the RMN shipyards aren't back in full flow yet. In contrast, Fearless was put out of commision WaY before Oyster Bay, in the 2nd book in the Honorverse, in fact.

By the way, I nominate put every ship that fought in Hypatia to be on the List as well, no?
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Re: Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:09 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:
zuluwiz wrote:I would think the next Fearless would be a battlecruiser. The MWW seems to like battlecruisers. The firstFearless of which we have been told was a LIGHT cruiser, so obviously the names can go up or down the ranks. For that matter, has there been a new Warlock built?


Part of it is likely that Hexapuma and Warlock, etc. are much more recent adds to the List of Honor-- and the RMN shipyards aren't back in full flow yet. In contrast, Fearless was put out of commision WaY before Oyster Bay, in the 2nd book in the Honorverse, in fact. [/qupte]

Which means HMS Fearless 3.0 might have been another Star Knight launched any time before 1910, when HMS Edward Saganami was. If they upgraded to BC, she might be a Reliant and might still be in service. "Fearless" and "Reliant" are adjectives, though of different themes.

Maybe the name was added again to the List, the first to be a double entry, and she got upgraded to SD. Now, wouldn't it be nice to have Honor come back from Cerberus to find out there's a Honor Harrington-class HMS Fearless in construction? Even "Medusa-class HMS Fearless" is fitting, since the name was added to the list while fighting to protect the Medusa planet.

By the way, I nominate put every ship that fought in Hypatia to be on the List as well, no?
[/quote]

Definitely. And Jan Kotouč for First Lord.

Hmmm, HMS Arngrim didn't even get shot (the SLN missiles went for the Lorelei decoys). Can a ship that came out of the battle unscathed be added to the Honour List?
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Re: Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:46 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:Wouldn't it make sense for HMS-Fearless to always be the newest and most powerful CA in the Royal Manticoran Navy? like Nike is for the battlecruiser class?
Actually no. Given the RMN's traditions it's really disruptive to have a ship name that must, always, belong to the newest and most powerful class in the navy.

I would guess that Nike, as Edward Saganami's flagship is likely unique in that extra stipulation among all the ships on the list of honor.


RMN tries very hard not to rename their ships (HMS Hancock Station; Honor's old HMS Nike was a major exception and only the needs of the war caused her to be retained. The plan was to retire her just before the BC(L) HMS Nike was commissioned; that plan changed when the ceasefire ended and she was brought back and renamed due to the desperate need for ships).

But if you don't rename ships that means you have to retire or scrap a ship of your second most modern class of the type every, single, time, you design and lay down a newer more powerful class. So you're likely retiring that ship ahead of even older, less powerful, ships simply to meet the requirement that that ship name belong to the latest and most powerful class.
Bad enough to do that for one or two of your most honored ship names; but a nightmare if it becomes any more common than that.
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Re: Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by Dauntless   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:31 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:
So you're designing the darn thing. Whazzit look like, capabilities, deployment plans, etc.?


well we don't know what new tricks they are going to develop but one thing I'm sure they will want to try and squeeze in is Keyhole.

even just Keyhole one would be useful.

now that the idea of Multi drive missiles has spread beyond the Haven sector then I think all smaller ships are going to grow, even more then some already have.

The Sag C is more flexible then the Roland but it too is very much a cut to the bone warfighter.

Roland DD will grow to make room for a couple of platoons of marines and deeper magazines, so maybe 250K.

Avalon CL are good ships and do the CL job well but as recently shown with the Sag Bs, SDMs just doesn't do the job anymore. I'd say take a Sag C, remove a half a dozen missile tubes for more CMs and PDs, keep the company of marines and call it a CL.

new CA's should be 900Kt-1Mt, same loadout as the Sag C, but deeper magazines more CM/PD, 2 companies of marines and assuming the RMN has worked out a way to downsize it enough a KH one.
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Re: Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by Brigade XO   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:12 pm

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Hexapuma and Warlock are going to have to wait for the shipbuilding to get back underway at Manticore. Was Warlock in the yard when Oyster Bay hit? That was how Hexapuma died but it is possible that Warlock- which was scheduled to be decommissioned and scrapped having only been given enough repair to make it home- might have been parked out somewhere out of traffic and not included in the targeting queue by the Ghosts. If thats the case, it may or may not have been put to an active duty use at least in-system

Isn't it reasonable that names on the List of Honor are cycled through so that the names are in a queue of use and once applied to the "next" ship in that class it just gets use and then that ship has it's own active duty span of life.
The latest Fearless could be out in the new SEM area of Silesia. We don't have to see every ship in commission and there is no compelling reason to be shown Fearless
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Re: Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri Jan 10, 2020 6:45 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Isn't it reasonable that names on the List of Honor are cycled through so that the names are in a queue of use and once applied to the "next" ship in that class it just gets use and then that ship has it's own active duty span of life.
The latest Fearless could be out in the new SEM area of Silesia. We don't have to see every ship in commission and there is no compelling reason to be shown Fearless

That's basically the way I assume that the List of Honor names normally work.

When a ship whose name is on the List is scheduled for decommissioning then the name is tentatively assigned to a new ship, usually but not always of the same type, that's currently under construction but not yet commissioned. Old ship of the Name decommissions and new ship of that name commissions shortly thereafter.

Similar when a ship on the List is destroyed or otherwise lost in an unexpected manner - a ship nearing completion is assigned to receive that name. (Often in that case the new ship probably already had a name tentatively assigned to it; but changing tentative names before commissioning isn't viewed with the disfavor as renaming commissioned ships)

That practice would tend to make the ships members of the most modern and powerful class of that type at the time they were commissioned but not throughout their entire service life.



HMS Nike is the oddball because that name apparently has a specific additional tradition that seems to force the name to be reassigned every time a better BC class is built.[1][2]


[1] Though even with 1 ship originally authorized I still think the Admiralty caused themselves unnecessary long term confusion by naming the 1st class of BC(L)s the Nike-class. Better to have named the class after their proposed ship #2 even if they never got authorized to build her)

[2] I assume there was never a Agamemnon-class BC(P) HMS Nike because the BC(L) was already authorized before the Aggies started commissioning. And apparently later more powerful flights of the same class aren't enough to trigger the passing of the name tradition
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Re: Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by Theemile   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:29 am

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I, for one, believe the entry cost for Manticore's "List of Honor" jumped during the wars. Hundreds of ships were lost under gallant circumstances, or performed heroically under such circumstances and miraculously survived to be duck taped and fight another day.

Do we add just any ship that stood in the line, took it's punches and died? There has to be a hurdle - and I would say it's significantly higher than admission was in 1900 - or else Manticore's navy is filled with ships that must be honored.
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Re: Just for fun... where's CA Fearless the third?
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:49 am

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SharkHunter wrote:Why no HMS Fearless in the pantheon of Saganami-C cruisers? or whatever the post Sag-C heavy cruiser becomes...We never read that CA-286 was repaired, and it is on the List of Honor. We also don't read that it's a museum ship at Grayson or any of the like.

Wouldn't it make sense for HMS-Fearless to always be the newest and most powerful CA in the Royal Manticoran Navy? like Nike is for the battlecruiser class?

So you're designing the darn thing. Whazzit look like, capabilities, deployment plans, etc.?


Why would there be another "Fearless"? She was heavily damaged at the end of _Honor of the Queen_, but not so much that she couldn't be repaired. She could have easily survived the entire First Haven war. Note that a lot of ships, probably cruiser types, were assigned to Silesia at the start of the Second Haven war.
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