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Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?

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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by SharkHunter   » Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:16 pm

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--snipping--
SharkHunter wrote:Love the question -- here's my thoughts.
In the "posited century", there's general population stability within the carrying capacity of at least most inhabited planets, and they're still within a relatively small chunk of the Milky Way.

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I do not believe that the Honorverse has " population stability.". The Honorverse simply has cheap access to new colonies that people can emigrate to if their homeworld limits reproductive opportunities.

We're agreeing --I meant on a per-star system basis, with a general ability to emigrate to other star systems relieving population pressures because, like the "zero balaners" in the early SEM, less populous world needs people. That does not mean that all said emigration is equally available economically; RFC makes it clear that many of the Honorverse political entities are riddled with crippling corruption and oligarchies.
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All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Jan 01, 2020 1:11 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Brigade XO wrote:Presuming you have a culture with a tech level and equipment on a par with a "developed" world in the Honorverse, you have all sorts of equipment and knowlege available to build the kind of things in planetary orbits that have been described.
Transfer station(s) for movement between starfaring ships (and in-system ships) and the planitary surface. That's the whole contergrave shuttle or freight shuttle portion.
Habitats. Industrial platforms.
You see all of that with Beowulf. What Manticore had was three primary stations (one each habital planet) and a whole bunch of smaller stuff- that is changing now post-Oyster Bay
Then you have a large number of systems that don't have much beyond the primary

What we are being shown is that, for anyplace that is able to build industry in space which can be supported by at least the markert/needs for the products on the planet, they are putting it in space. The problem is that that is places with good sized populations and a good tech base and the ability to get the capital or financing to do it (and, of course, train the people)
What we are also being shown is that these systems are also manufacturing for export and/or to create and grow their own capabilities to make things they need: that would include counter-gravity shuttles, in-system ships, starships of various types and all the equipment, electronics, enviornmental systems etc that you need.
Space is dangerous and unforgiving. On the other hand, there is a LOT of usable materials out there that is both already in space and you are going to need a lot of material to build your stations, ships, smelters, and everything else.
Keeping all the waste products and slag from mining, smelting,and everthing that goes into fabricationg anything from space ships & shuttles to tractor parts for your farms and electrical and communications equipment is worth the expence of not doing it on the planitary surface. The technology exists to build everything you have described- heck you can probably buy stock plans for proven designed with all the nessisary safety and secuirty pieces and if you can't already make the stuff yourself, somebody will sell you a turn-key operations
Where systems want to get to is being able to build out the whole package themselves but mostly what they are going to start with is smaller operations and try to grow it.
We don't get to see the actual costs but this is what was described when you look at the Manticore Acendent series. They need to build their own warships, but first they need to create the industrial base and their own ability to aquire the basic materials and create the stuff they need to build the infrastructure. They also need to make this profitable (more than pay for itself) and make more of what the home commerical and consumer markerts need so they can stop importing it. At the same time they need to be able to sell some of this stuff on the export markets to bring or keep the manufacturing volume high enough to make the profit and reduce the costs of goods to the their own system.

Simple and hard at the same time.


David has written that Earth had resolved its environmental crisis by exploiting off planet resources BEFORE interstellar colonization began. This is almost inevitable given that the enormous energy needed for a single interstellar ship would power our current civilization for centuries. Once you start exploiting space resources you have the ability as well as the need to build O'Neil style space colonies. Once humanity has this ability, the carrying capacity of the solar system is measured in trillions rather than billions of people. You establish interstellar colonies on habitable planets rather than in O'Neill colonies only because some people prefer to live on a planet. The former option is well described in Joan D Vinge's THE OUTCASTS OF HEAVEN BELT.


My suspicion is that in the early centuries of colonization where ships were STL and only one way, and feasible range was limited, colonists had to settle for some marginally habitable planets. As the result, development of space resources to support a planetary colony occurred first or at least concurrently. Terraforming was probably necessary.

Once FTL survey ships became available and STL colony ships became more reliable and capable, it was feasible to settle on worlds that were more habitable without significant space based industries. As long as the population is small, say less than 100 million people, the thermal footprint of your colony is not a problem. This is particularly true if your colonists are content with only a 20th century or early 21st century technology base and living standards.

Once an interstellar colony reaches a population close to one billion and desires more advanced technology with higher living standards, space industries became necessary. Space industry also becomes more necessary if your planet is only marginally habitable, toxic waste dump such as Grayson.
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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Jan 01, 2020 4:43 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:David has written that Earth had resolved its environmental crisis by exploiting off planet resources BEFORE interstellar colonization began. This is almost inevitable given that the enormous energy needed for a single interstellar ship would power our current civilization for centuries. Once you start exploiting space resources you have the ability as well as the need to build O'Neil style space colonies. Once humanity has this ability, the carrying capacity of the solar system is measured in trillions rather than billions of people. You establish interstellar colonies on habitable planets rather than in O'Neill colonies only because some people prefer to live on a planet. The former option is well described in Joan D Vinge's THE OUTCASTS OF HEAVEN BELT.


And if you watch Isaac Arthur's episodes on the possible future of the Solar System, with a Dyson Swarm (which is what Freeman Dyson was thinking of when he said "sphere", but now we use a different term so people don't think of a solid shell), the capacity for a Kardashev Type 2 civilisation in a single star system would actually be in the quadrillions, not trillions. And that's not considering virtual people, either native AIs or people uploaded.

My suspicion is that in the early centuries of colonization where ships were STL and only one way, and feasible range was limited, colonists had to settle for some marginally habitable planets. As the result, development of space resources to support a planetary colony occurred first or at least concurrently. Terraforming was probably necessary.


Which is Isaac's prediction too. You send automated ships first to begin setting up your industry, mining asteroids and such. You set up colonies either in space (more O'Neill cylinders or similar) or in low-gravity moons where you can easily take off from with launch rails or can build space elevators for with known materials. You'll have the bulk of your farming in space too, where you don't have to fight extraterrestrial microbes.

Only after you've got all of this done do you start moving people to the bottom of a gravity well. Lifting things out of there isn't easy and aid is decades to centuries away, so you to be sure you're self-sufficient by then. But he asks a question: would people want to? By this point, you've had several generations living on space colonies, possibly even having lived in other space colonies in the Sol System for generations.

For the Honorverse, we must assume that most people were still living on Earth, not in space, before departure; they made the trip in a sleeper ship, not a generational one; and setting up space-based industry at the destination was quick enough that landing all the other colonists early was a viable option.

Once FTL survey ships became available and STL colony ships became more reliable and capable, it was feasible to settle on worlds that were more habitable without significant space based industries. As long as the population is small, say less than 100 million people, the thermal footprint of your colony is not a problem. This is particularly true if your colonists are content with only a 20th century or early 21st century technology base and living standards.

Once an interstellar colony reaches a population close to one billion and desires more advanced technology with higher living standards, space industries became necessary. Space industry also becomes more necessary if your planet is only marginally habitable, toxic waste dump such as Grayson.


Why would you not want to have advanced technology and high living standards in the beginning? Why does a colony need to go through the evolutionary stage that we had on Earth: agricultural first, then industries, then space? If you're coming from space and you leave the bulk of your industries and farming in space, and you start your colony with enough people, you'll never lose your technology. You can probably have higher standard of living in a previously-unpopulated system and ready access to a lot of materials than in an overcrowded Sol System. That would be a great incentive to emigration in the first place.
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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by drothgery   » Wed Jan 01, 2020 5:40 pm

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cthia wrote:Late edit: Heavy industry in the Honorverse are probably really huge operations. Huge operations are an eyesore and eat up lots of space in a city. Limited space in cities with billions of people is relieved by building tall high rises and stacking the population in "concrete bunk beds." Many business operations can't be stacked. Businesses need a certain layout to be efficient.

The overwhelming majority of inhabited planets in the Honorverse, even within the League, have a population under 2B (aka way less than present-day Earth). And most Honorverse urban populations live in giant contragrav towers despite this, probably with population densities that make Hong Kong sparsely populated. Except for heavily populated deep core worlds and edge cases like San Martin where most of the land area isn't actually habitable, I don't think there's a lack of space for industry on the ground (and you could still put automated heavy industry places where people can't live).
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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by Maldorian   » Wed Jan 01, 2020 8:15 pm

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The overwhelming majority of inhabited planets in the Honorverse, even within the League, have a population under 2B (aka way less than present-day Earth). And most Honorverse urban populations live in giant contragrav towers despite this, probably with population densities that make Hong Kong sparsely populated. Except for heavily populated deep core worlds and edge cases like San Martin where most of the land area isn't actually habitable, I don't think there's a lack of space for industry on the ground (and you could still put automated heavy industry places where people can't live).


First of all: the discussion was of "HEAVY" industry that needs alot of material and energy, and because of that space is the most logical location for it because of logistics. Even if you have enough space on the planet surface, it is difficult to bring things into space or down on the surface because of the atmosphere. It´s easier if the material and the fusion fuel (energy) stay in space and only the finished products will be delivered down on the surface.

It could be diffrent for LIGHT industry, that need less material and mayby way more workers because more complicated products.
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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:12 pm

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cthia wrote:The idiot in me was comparing it to present day shipping times which are vastly different.

However, I recall one way a company of mine solved the problem of access to materials was to build a warehouse and stock the goods. The problem with that is the size of the warehouse needed to make that work. Large storage facilities shouldn't be a problem in the Honorverse. Space is infinite, and cheap by the acre. In the Honorverse, it's...buy in bulk, stock in bulk, ship in bulk. So it doesn't matter if the warehouses themselves get the goods slower than would be on planet, as long as a widget is available when needed. Inventory control. But, if you need something you don't generally stock can be a problem. Although, shipping out of the system can expose the shipment to pirates or other disasters.

P.S. If you need something right away that's not in the warehouses, a Streak Boat can get it to you the day before yesterday. LOL

Yeah, warehousing can give you enough buffer to absorb delays or "lumpiness" in delivery. Though there is a valid reason more companies here and now have tried moving towards more of a just in time process with as little warehousing as they can get away with. (which sometimes bites them when a supplier has a crisis and can't provide material/parts/subsystems on time. But materials or parts sitting in a warehouse cost money (even if the warehousing itself is free) and don't earn anything until processed and sold. So warehousing ties up money for as long as the material is sitting there.

Also, at least here and now, pipelines are far more economical ways of delivering liquids or gasses than ships, rail, or trucks. OTOH most of the gases in the Honorverse are probably coming from gas giants; and you might be making necessary liquids from material siphoned or mined in space. And to my mind the expensive part of moving liquids or gasses into or out of space is dividing it up into relative penny packets that a tanker configured shuttle could hold. So if they originate in space then it should be cheaper to get them at a station a tanker ship could dock with and pump them over than it would be to ship them down to the ground where you might need hundreds of shuttle runs to move that same material. (But conversely if you had liquids or gasses that came from the surface it'd should be cheaper to access them in a groundside factory within pipeline distance of the source.
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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jan 02, 2020 3:52 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Also, at least here and now, pipelines are far more economical ways of delivering liquids or gasses than ships, rail, or trucks. OTOH most of the gases in the Honorverse are probably coming from gas giants; and you might be making necessary liquids from material siphoned or mined in space. And to my mind the expensive part of moving liquids or gasses into or out of space is dividing it up into relative penny packets that a tanker configured shuttle could hold. So if they originate in space then it should be cheaper to get them at a station a tanker ship could dock with and pump them over than it would be to ship them down to the ground where you might need hundreds of shuttle runs to move that same material. (But conversely if you had liquids or gasses that came from the surface it'd should be cheaper to access them in a groundside factory within pipeline distance of the source.


The point is that almost everything can originate in space. Do you need ores? See rocky moons and asteroids. Hydrogen and Helium? Gas giants. Water? Comets, moons, etc. All of which have far less gravity than a terrestrial planet like the Earth and a much thinner atmosphere impeding you from just launching what you need into space. Energy? Abundant sunlight without the pesky rotation problem.

There are three things that Earth has that space doesn't and one isn't relevant for the Honorverse:

1) Gravity. Certain materials could need an orientation in order to form correctly (conversely, there are some others that can't be formed in a gravity well). Centrifugal force is a partial answer for us today, but the induced Coriolis force could be a problem for some hypothetical materials. In the Honorverse, you have grave plates, so this is not an issue.

2) There's more of it. The Earth is more massive and holds more iron and nickel than the rest of the planets, all the dwarf planets, asteroids and Kuiper Belt objects (and probably Oort Cloud) combined. (Jupiter has more mass than all of the other planets put together and the Sun is 1000x more massive than Jupiter). But I don't think there's any danger of exhausting any star system in the Honorverse right now. Not with puny populations in the tens of billions range.

3) Proximity to the consumer. Some times, it's better to produce the finished product close to the sales point, to avoid shipping units that could be fragile. This is the only one I think is still valid for a space-based industry: final assembly of delicate products. Drop bulk intermediate products from orbit to the planet surface, then assemble the final units there.
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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:39 pm

TFLYTSNBN

Maldorian wrote:
The overwhelming majority of inhabited planets in the Honorverse, even within the League, have a population under 2B (aka way less than present-day Earth). And most Honorverse urban populations live in giant contragrav towers despite this, probably with population densities that make Hong Kong sparsely populated. Except for heavily populated deep core worlds and edge cases like San Martin where most of the land area isn't actually habitable, I don't think there's a lack of space for industry on the ground (and you could still put automated heavy industry places where people can't live).


First of all: the discussion was of "HEAVY" industry that needs alot of material and energy, and because of that space is the most logical location for it because of logistics. Even if you have enough space on the planet surface, it is difficult to bring things into space or down on the surface because of the atmosphere. It´s easier if the material and the fusion fuel (energy) stay in space and only the finished products will be delivered down on the surface.

It could be diffrent for LIGHT industry, that need less material and mayby way more workers because more complicated products.



This is why I concentrated on the level of energy use relative to planetary insolation as the issue. Right now human civilization utilizes energy at the Terrawatt level which is 1/10,000 of insolation. Even an all out nuclear war that releases say 1,000 Megatons, the energy release is on the 4eex18 Joules over may be a day, so power is only 4eex13 Watts for a brief time. Global nsolation is on the order 2eex17 Watts. A nuclear war will do a number on human civilization but will have minimal impact on the heat balance of the planet unless it affects albedo or emissivity.

Given Weber's descriptions, Honorverse starships have fusion reactors with power output in the Petawatt or even Exawatt range. In spite of this availability of fusion power, most systems still seem to rely massive solar collectors to power their industries. One can reasonably conclude that system industries require Zetawatt level (1eex21) power levels. This would broil a planet.
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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:43 pm

TFLYTSNBN

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Also, at least here and now, pipelines are far more economical ways of delivering liquids or gasses than ships, rail, or trucks. OTOH most of the gases in the Honorverse are probably coming from gas giants; and you might be making necessary liquids from material siphoned or mined in space. And to my mind the expensive part of moving liquids or gasses into or out of space is dividing it up into relative penny packets that a tanker configured shuttle could hold. So if they originate in space then it should be cheaper to get them at a station a tanker ship could dock with and pump them over than it would be to ship them down to the ground where you might need hundreds of shuttle runs to move that same material. (But conversely if you had liquids or gasses that came from the surface it'd should be cheaper to access them in a groundside factory within pipeline distance of the source.


The point is that almost everything can originate in space. Do you need ores? See rocky moons and asteroids. Hydrogen and Helium? Gas giants. Water? Comets, moons, etc. All of which have far less gravity than a terrestrial planet like the Earth and a much thinner atmosphere impeding you from just launching what you need into space. Energy? Abundant sunlight without the pesky rotation problem.

There are three things that Earth has that space doesn't and one isn't relevant for the Honorverse:

1) Gravity. Certain materials could need an orientation in order to form correctly (conversely, there are some others that can't be formed in a gravity well). Centrifugal force is a partial answer for us today, but the induced Coriolis force could be a problem for some hypothetical materials. In the Honorverse, you have grave plates, so this is not an issue.

2) There's more of it. The Earth is more massive and holds more iron and nickel than the rest of the planets, all the dwarf planets, asteroids and Kuiper Belt objects (and probably Oort Cloud) combined. (Jupiter has more mass than all of the other planets put together and the Sun is 1000x more massive than Jupiter). But I don't think there's any danger of exhausting any star system in the Honorverse right now. Not with puny populations in the tens of billions range.

3) Proximity to the consumer. Some times, it's better to produce the finished product close to the sales point, to avoid shipping units that could be fragile. This is the only one I think is still valid for a space-based industry: final assembly of delicate products. Drop bulk intermediate products from orbit to the planet surface, then assemble the final units there.



We should disassemble the Earth to extract all that Nickle and Iron.

Grayson is a toxic waste dump that was made to be strip mined.
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Re: Why are Honorverse Heavy Industries off Planet?
Post by drothgery   » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:26 pm

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Maldorian wrote:First of all: the discussion was of "HEAVY" industry that needs alot of material and energy, and because of that space is the most logical location for it because of logistics. Even if you have enough space on the planet surface, it is difficult to bring things into space or down on the surface because of the atmosphere. It´s easier if the material and the fusion fuel (energy) stay in space and only the finished products will be delivered down on the surface.

Erm... I never said there weren't good reasons to keep heavy industry in space. I just said lack of room for it wasn't one of those reasons.
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