OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

THE EFFECTIVENESS of EIGHTH FLEET

There is one thing in this thread that isn't assigned the correct weight. . .the effectiveness of Eighth Fleet. When 8th Fleet sortied, they were devastating raids. Honor didn't mirror the mistake of the Japanese when they ignored the oil fields at Pearl. When the Salamander sortied, everything that should have been hit, was hit. Honor didn't want to be sent back to the grocery store because she "forgot" an item. Honor was thorough. 8th Fleet was a cutting tool.

I'm certain you all know that, but, with Honor at the helm, you can bet all political targets were hit too. Even if her many chats with Beth hadn't allowed Honor to know in full clarity the political importance of Peep systems, and how everything in that system all broke down, her Grayson persona did. Honor knew the full military importance of each system she hit. And it's political importance too. Many are simply placing too much stock in the weight of metal, than the weight of politics. It is insane for any of us to purport to know the full benefit of hitting some place like Solon, or any Peep outpost, simply because there isn't a benefit that we can see. That's classified information. Which is why Beth herself damn well did, and should, have the ability to strongly suggest a target. Beth has inside information where a raid will hit hard in Peep pockets, both militarily. . .and in many ways more significantly, politically.

Which brings me to the protest about Hamish exceeding his pay grade, getting in someone else's business, forsaking his bailiwick... . . .

Remember, Hamish is a civilian, yes. But Hamish is a top naval officer turned civilian. The kind of civilian you should want. One who is not alien to the ways of the military. It would have been foolish not to accept, or at least consider, indeed encourage, Hamish's input on any level. The mind of arguably your second best officer of the fleet, is a terrible thing to waste, considering he is in strategic and political cahoots with his wife, who has become a political giant in constant contact with the Queen. That would have been irresponsible. Nobody's talents should be beached because of a promotion. The brainstorming of Beth, Hamish and Honor is one of your most prized possessions.

Talk about the mighty centicredit going out the window when freighters sit idly by, consider the cost of a dormant 8th Fleet.

So for all of the reasons listed above, 8th Fleet could never choose to sit at home, even if Beth would allow it. Even if Beth COULD allow it, with every one of her constituents screaming that 8th Fleet isn't out swashbuckling when the RHN is on the move. Probably had a little to do with why Honor had to remain on ship a lot. I can just hear some uptight newsie giving Honor a hard time about not being out and about protecting the SEM. And praising her when she comes home after a successful attack. And they would have been right, because of the kind of initiative 8th Fleet seized . . .

It’s not that simple. There are guys who are great company commanders who can’t run a battalion. And grest division commanders who can’t manage an army group.

And guys who were great generals who can’t manage the entire defense establishment. Being the head of the entire org isn’t a super tactical expert job, or even a super fleet commander.

It’s a very political job, as there are many competing priorities. I’ll point out that George Marshal’s largest command was a division before he was appointed to Army Chief of Staff. And Eisenhower’s most senior command was a battalion, as a LTC, bedore how was pit on charge of the entire European theater. And it’s usually felt they dod a pretty good job.

cthia wrote:So for all of the reasons listed above, 8th Fleet could never choose to sit at home, even if Beth would allow it. Even if Beth COULD allow it, with every one of her constituents screaming that 8th Fleet isn't out swashbuckling when the RHN is on the move. Probably had a little to do with why Honor had to remain on ship a lot. I can just hear some uptight newsie giving Honor a hard time about not being out and about protecting the SEM. And praising her when she comes home after a successful attack. And they would have been right, because of the kind of initiative 8th Fleet seized . . .

None of that answers the point that it would have been a disaster if Honor had been on one of her raids when the Battle of Manticore took place. Manticore would have lost if her fleet was not available to act when it did. Which is the point being made that her ships needed to be available for home guard, at least until the Apollo system defense pods were in place. Home defense is NOT a waste of money, it is a vital part of any strategic plan. As others have pointed out, once Apollo was revealed there was a window of vulnerability until it was in general use and Haven very nearly capitalized on that fact.

Perhaps Hamish was too offensive minded and so never thought to tell the Queen that now is not the time, but once Apollo is widespread then we can do all you want and more.

tlb wrote:None of that answers the point that it would have been a disaster if Honor had been on one of her raids when the Battle of Manticore took place. Manticore would have lost if her fleet was not available to act when it did. Which is the point being made that her ships needed to be available for home guard, at least until the Apollo system defense pods were in place. Home defense is NOT a waste of money, it is a vital part of any strategic plan. As others have pointed out, once Apollo was revealed there was a window of vulnerability until it was in general use and Haven very nearly capitalized on that fact.

Perhaps Hamish was too offensive minded and so never thought to tell the Queen that now is not the time, but once Apollo is widespread then we can do all you want and more.

I still think there's merit to my theory they had no idea just how effective Apollo would be until they revealed it. The "oops" theory.

The fact that Eighth did not sortie again after the first Sanskrit even though 8 weeks passed between that and the Battle of Manticore is a good indication too. They had the opportunity to go, but didn't. And they had much shorter travel time: they could be out again and back before any order dispatched from Haven could reach any ship and that ship reach Manticore.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I still think there's merit to my theory they had no idea just how effective Apollo would be until they revealed it. The "oops" theory.

The fact that Eighth did not sortie again after the first Sanskrit even though 8 weeks passed between that and the Battle of Manticore is a good indication too. They had the opportunity to go, but didn't. And they had much shorter travel time: they could be out again and back before any order dispatched from Haven could reach any ship and that ship reach Manticore.

There may be a small bit of merit there, but the one clear point about Apollo is that it gives the same control at light-minutes that the RMN formerly had only at light-seconds; so the appreciation should have been that this gives an undeniable edge for any long distance engagement within the hyper limit.

It is true that an attack on Manticore based on any report to Haven of a sortie by Honor's force has the problem you state. But if the raids had continued after the first (as a previous poster seems to say they should), then there was a possibility that Honor's force would be unavailable at the critical point.

So was the Admiralty prescient enough to know (either before or after the effectiveness is proved in the raid) that the one Apollo raid would trigger an attack that Honor's fleet should remain in position to stop? And that success would effectively end the war?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

tlb wrote:None of that answers the point that it would have been a disaster if Honor had been on one of her raids when the Battle of Manticore took place. Manticore would have lost if her fleet was not available to act when it did. Which is the point being made that her ships needed to be available for home guard, at least until the Apollo system defense pods were in place. Home defense is NOT a waste of money, it is a vital part of any strategic plan. As others have pointed out, once Apollo was revealed there was a window of vulnerability until it was in general use and Haven very nearly capitalized on that fact.

Perhaps Hamish was too offensive minded and so never thought to tell the Queen that now is not the time, but once Apollo is widespread then we can do all you want and more.

I still think there's merit to my theory they had no idea just how effective Apollo would be until they revealed it. The "oops" theory.

The fact that Eighth did not sortie again after the first Sanskrit even though 8 weeks passed between that and the Battle of Manticore is a good indication too. They had the opportunity to go, but didn't. And they had much shorter travel time: they could be out again and back before any order dispatched from Haven could reach any ship and that ship reach Manticore.

@tlb:
It's about making the tough calls. Most navies, armies, sharpest spear, went about the countryside to thrust and parry. Besides, WHAT IF, Honor herself is away sortieing when the Peeps come a-calling home.

Moreover, 8th Fleet enjoyed the interior lines of operation enabled by the junctions. When it sortied, they were operating AND communicating inside those interior lines. You're suggesting they should have wasted that advantage. They chose to make the tough call, and not panic. The Salamander sotied and got back home in time for dinner. Relax, 8th Fleet was never more than a hop, skip or a jump away. Most of the time.

@ThinksMarkedly:
Of course they didn't know. Textev has your back on that. In fact, the RMN didn't truly know the effectiveness of Apollo clear up until the time Michelle "took her gloves off" to find out.

Actually, Apollo is still teaching them.

Does anyone have the breakdown on exactly how many Apollo capable ships 8th Fleet had? I wondered why at least a third of the ships were not cycled back and forth between two fleets to give the illusion of more widespread dispersal. The RMN enjoyed the interior lines. They could afford to play musical chairs, at least, until, well, they couldn't. Like when Honor got her stockings shot off.

tlb wrote:There may be a small bit of merit there, but the one clear point about Apollo is that it gives the same control at light-minutes that the RMN formerly had only at light-seconds; so the appreciation should have been that this gives an undeniable edge for any long distance engagement within the hyper limit.

And when was the last time they fought with MDMs from within 1.3 million km of the enemy? They may have noticed that Apollo was 50x better than non-Apollo (62c FTL, reduced a little because it's not the exact same thing), but that put the performance into a range that they had not fought at since before Operation Buttercup and never with MDMs.

They must have fired dummy warheads against Alliance ships. Suppose Alliance ships can stop much more of Apollo than the Sovereigns of Space can?

It is true that an attack on Manticore based on any report to Haven of a sortie by Honor's force has the problem you state. But if the raids had continued after the first (as a previous poster seems to say they should), then there was a possibility that Honor's force would be unavailable at the critical point.

So was the Admiralty prescient enough to know (either before or after the effectiveness is proved in the raid) that the one Apollo raid would trigger an attack that Honor's fleet should remain in position to stop? And that success would effectively end the war?

Those are good questions. Unless RFC comes by to give the answer, we won't know.

cthia wrote:@tlb:
It's about making the tough calls. Most navies, armies, sharpest spear, went about the countryside to thrust and parry. Besides, WHAT IF, Honor herself is away sortieing when the Peeps come a-calling home.

Moreover, 8th Fleet enjoyed the interior lines of operation enabled by the junctions. When it sortied, they were operating AND communicating inside those interior lines. You're suggesting they should have wasted that advantage. They chose to make the tough call, and not panic. The Salamander sotied and got back home in time for dinner. Relax, 8th Fleet was never more than a hop, skip or a jump away. Most of the time.

You asked almost the same question without providing an answer; fortunately ThinksMarkedly told us what actually happened:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The fact that Eighth did not sortie again after the first Sanskrit even though 8 weeks passed between that and the Battle of Manticore is a good indication too. They had the opportunity to go, but didn't.

"Most of the time" would not have cut it, if they had been away when the battle had been fought. You seem to think that they were just a "hop, skip or a jump" when on a sortie, but the actual time for a raid must be at least a week. Even if it were only three days, that could have kept them out of the action.

If you truly want Honor to get into Home Fleets bailiwick, then why the hell are you giving Hamish a hard time for doing the same?