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OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:19 pm

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tlb wrote:None of that answers the point that it would have been a disaster if Honor had been on one of her raids when the Battle of Manticore took place. Manticore would have lost if her fleet was not available to act when it did. Which is the point being made that her ships needed to be available for home guard, at least until the Apollo system defense pods were in place. Home defense is NOT a waste of money, it is a vital part of any strategic plan. As others have pointed out, once Apollo was revealed there was a window of vulnerability until it was in general use and Haven very nearly capitalized on that fact.

Is there any question that the Sphinx defenses would have engaged rather than surrender the entire system? They had plenty of pods, even if they weren't Apollo (or weren't equipped to control Apollo). They had forts capable of deploying and controlling those pods as well as taking on huge external loads of pods. If they'd had any sense at all - and Caparelli did seem to - they'd have loaded up on external pods and started moving as far from Sphinx as they could in the time available. Even if 10g is as fast as they can go, they could have opened up a pretty good safety margin before 2nd fleet got in range. Moving a million km to system north would mean that even max range MDMs wouldn't be a danger to the planet, and forts could do that in 90 minutes or less.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:38 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
And when was the last time they fought with MDMs from within 1.3 million km of the enemy? They may have noticed that Apollo was 50x better than non-Apollo (62c FTL, reduced a little because it's not the exact same thing), but that put the performance into a range that they had not fought at since before Operation Buttercup and never with MDMs.
For that matter they'd have very rarely engaged at such close range with SDMs either.

That's within CM range!

And even if they were in a missile duel at 1.3 million km the threat environment would have been far different since they'd be shooting at missiles that had nearly zero base velocity and even being able to accelerate at full power they'd be sitting ducks for CMs and PDLCs. A far cry from an MDM screaming across the defensive zone at a sizable fraction of the speed of light!

So nobody had ever fought at under 2 million effective km with 0.6c+ missiles.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 5:58 pm

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George J. Smith wrote:
cthia wrote: Shit or get off the pot. You can't do both


Well you can but it is a bit messy :lol:

Certainly.

Pavel Young proved your point at the Battle of Hancock. He shit, then he got off the pot, leaving Honor high and dry.

Just like you said, it got messy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by kzt   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:08 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote:
tlb wrote:None of that answers the point that it would have been a disaster if Honor had been on one of her raids when the Battle of Manticore took place. Manticore would have lost if her fleet was not available to act when it did. Which is the point being made that her ships needed to be available for home guard, at least until the Apollo system defense pods were in place. Home defense is NOT a waste of money, it is a vital part of any strategic plan. As others have pointed out, once Apollo was revealed there was a window of vulnerability until it was in general use and Haven very nearly capitalized on that fact.

Is there any question that the Sphinx defenses would have engaged rather than surrender the entire system? They had plenty of pods, even if they weren't Apollo (or weren't equipped to control Apollo). They had forts capable of deploying and controlling those pods as well as taking on huge external loads of pods. If they'd had any sense at all - and Caparelli did seem to - they'd have loaded up on external pods and started moving as far from Sphinx as they could in the time available. Even if 10g is as fast as they can go, they could have opened up a pretty good safety margin before 2nd fleet got in range. Moving a million km to system north would mean that even max range MDMs wouldn't be a danger to the planet, and forts could do that in 90 minutes or less.

The entire admiralty seemed to be in a k hole following the same party where Kuzak got her crack. Note that nobdy could remember when they had run an evac drill of any platform? So they clearly didn’t evac the sphinx orbitals. All thse things are part of why I think AAC is a terrible book. Every chracter is being beaten into compliance with the Holy PLOT.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by tlb   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:19 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:And when was the last time they fought with MDMs from within 1.3 million km of the enemy? They may have noticed that Apollo was 50x better than non-Apollo (62c FTL, reduced a little because it's not the exact same thing), but that put the performance into a range that they had not fought at since before Operation Buttercup and never with MDMs.

Jonathan_S wrote:For that matter they'd have very rarely engaged at such close range with SDMs either.

That's within CM range!

And even if they were in a missile duel at 1.3 million km the threat environment would have been far different since they'd be shooting at missiles that had nearly zero base velocity and even being able to accelerate at full power they'd be sitting ducks for CMs and PDLCs. A far cry from an MDM screaming across the defensive zone at a sizable fraction of the speed of light!

So nobody had ever fought at under 2 million effective km with 0.6c+ missiles.

Pick whatever range you want as the normal distance for a missile engagement, the point is that Apollo has the same control at a distance at least 50 times farther away. Plus it has that added speed when it reaches the envelop for anti-missile engagement.

PS. I generally ignore all the numbers that float around during an engagement in the book, because they are sleep inducing for me; but FTL control gives better than an order of magnitude improvement.
Last edited by tlb on Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by tlb   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 6:27 pm

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tlb wrote:None of that answers the point that it would have been a disaster if Honor had been on one of her raids when the Battle of Manticore took place. Manticore would have lost if her fleet was not available to act when it did. Which is the point being made that her ships needed to be available for home guard, at least until the Apollo system defense pods were in place. Home defense is NOT a waste of money, it is a vital part of any strategic plan. As others have pointed out, once Apollo was revealed there was a window of vulnerability until it was in general use and Haven very nearly capitalized on that fact.

Galactic Sapper wrote:Is there any question that the Sphinx defenses would have engaged rather than surrender the entire system? They had plenty of pods, even if they weren't Apollo (or weren't equipped to control Apollo). They had forts capable of deploying and controlling those pods as well as taking on huge external loads of pods. If they'd had any sense at all - and Caparelli did seem to - they'd have loaded up on external pods and started moving as far from Sphinx as they could in the time available. Even if 10g is as fast as they can go, they could have opened up a pretty good safety margin before 2nd fleet got in range. Moving a million km to system north would mean that even max range MDMs wouldn't be a danger to the planet, and forts could do that in 90 minutes or less.

kzt wrote:The entire admiralty seemed to be in a k hole following the same party where Kuzak got her crack. Note that nobdy could remember when they had run an evac drill of any platform? So they clearly didn’t evac the sphinx orbitals. All thse things are part of why I think AAC is a terrible book. Every chracter is being beaten into compliance with the Holy PLOT.

Is there any sign in the book that the Sphinx forts were moving away from the planet before Honor told them to not shoot? Once Home Fleet and Kuzak's forces were beaten and without the presence of Honor's Fleet, the RHN could have reloaded from their ammo ships and proceeded to blow away the barely mobile forces remaining. They even could have bypassed the Sphinx defenses and gone straight to Manticore, since that was the ultimate prize.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by kzt   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 7:05 pm

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tlb wrote:Is there any sign in the book that the Sphinx forts were moving away from the planet before Honor told them to not shoot? Once Home Fleet and Kuzak's forces were beaten and without the presence of Honor's Fleet, the RHN could have reloaded from their ammo ships and proceeded to blow away the barely mobile forces remaining. They even could have bypassed the Sphinx defenses and gone straight to Manticore, since that was the ultimate prize.

The only mention of forts around the planets that I've ever found was when it was mentioned that they were going to get Apollo in the not terribly distant future.

The entire perimeter defense force HQ was on the structure. There was no mention of forts when the MAN blew up everything in orbit. Which is kind of odd given that they should have a good assortment of energy weapons and tractors that seems like it might be useful. And much more active sensors and PDLCs that would respond to people launching missiles at close range. Not to mention that you'd expect that the logical place to put your orbital defense HQ would be in on the very well defensed and armored forts that have a 24/7 bubble sidewall up, not on the soft platform.

And it was mentioned that the RMN hates to build forts to defend planets, they prefer mobile forces. There was a lot of loud grumbling over the forts around Basilisk due to this.

So it kind of appears to me that whether there are any forts depends on the needs of the plot.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:49 pm

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kzt wrote:
tlb wrote:Is there any sign in the book that the Sphinx forts were moving away from the planet before Honor told them to not shoot? Once Home Fleet and Kuzak's forces were beaten and without the presence of Honor's Fleet, the RHN could have reloaded from their ammo ships and proceeded to blow away the barely mobile forces remaining. They even could have bypassed the Sphinx defenses and gone straight to Manticore, since that was the ultimate prize.

The only mention of forts around the planets that I've ever found was when it was mentioned that they were going to get Apollo in the not terribly distant future.

The entire perimeter defense force HQ was on the structure. There was no mention of forts when the MAN blew up everything in orbit. Which is kind of odd given that they should have a good assortment of energy weapons and tractors that seems like it might be useful. And much more active sensors and PDLCs that would respond to people launching missiles at close range. Not to mention that you'd expect that the logical place to put your orbital defense HQ would be in on the very well defensed and armored forts that have a 24/7 bubble sidewall up, not on the soft platform.

And it was mentioned that the RMN hates to build forts to defend planets, they prefer mobile forces. There was a lot of loud grumbling over the forts around Basilisk due to this.

So it kind of appears to me that whether there are any forts depends on the needs of the plot.


David did say that there were planetary forts. They control the pods and other defenses. Due to the limited number of Sharks, they were not targeted in OB.

But yes, the planetary defenses seem to be plot driven. If nothing else, their existence should have been part of the calculus of BoMA. Even without the clouds of pods, a single intact modern fort would require 1/2 a squadron of SD(p)s or more to achieve parity. Cracking Sphinx would require a considerable minimum force size, and Manticore would require that again.

Someone on the Havenite staff should have been discussing the viability of the next stages of the assault, given the losses to 3rd fleet. Yes, they had enough remaining to take Sphinx, but given the current losses and damage, could they take Manticore and hold it against the remaining cruiser level forces in the system? If they couldn't, why bother risking the losses to take Sphinx?
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Thu Jan 30, 2020 8:51 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote:I think the implied delay there was integrating the newly arrived Andermani ships with the existing 8th fleet structure. Certainly that was what Honor was working on when the Havenites showed up. I suppose she could have sent half the fleet out under Truman to burn down another Havenite system, but Harrington's primary job was at home at that particular moment.


For 8-9 weeks? Even if it took them half that time for them to arrive, it would seem plenty to integrate. And even if it wasn't, she could have gone out with the same TOE that had attacked Lovat. Or, more likely, taken the Andies along but left them in a non-critical position. Lobbing missiles from way out of the opponent's range is not very difficult.

Though that may have been a hard sell to leave Gortz-like captains out of the main action.

Anyway, my point is that they could have sortied if they wanted to. Instead, they chose to stay home and sharpen their skills before going out to Jouett. They may have been waiting for the RHN counter-offensive to judge what to do.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Star Knight   » Fri Jan 31, 2020 10:27 am

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@ThinksMarkedly

1) I still think it's likely the op tempo was slowed down by Apollo production.

2) IAN wallers only started to arrive in the weeks before BoMa. You need a working up / command integration period before going out again. If Eighth Fleet went ahead without them, they'd need to do that after they got back.

3) The RMN didn't plan the raids far ahead. Planning for the next target always started only after the last operation was completed. They also did a lot of off-page scouting and adjusted the possible raiding targets based on the changes in relative force structure - all of this takes time.

4) Particularly after Lovat the RMN started to understand the implications of Apollo and specifically decided to go for the biggest fish in the game. Further raids against secondary targets were not considered anymore.
This changing stance made it necessary for them to wait until Eighth Fleet was build up to sufficient levels for first-tier targets.
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