OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

Umm, no. That isn't how it worked. You see, unless you are a Mantie admiral who has suddenly, along with her staff, found herself rendered senseless after an unprovoked assault by the author's plot hammer, you come out of hyper with your pods deployed and ready to fight.

Like 8th fleet did.

Chapter Sixty Five
"I agree, too," Honor said. "But two things. First, I want to start rolling pods now. Use their onboard tractors to limpet them to the hulls. I want a third of our total pod loadout out there, if we can manage it."
"Yes, Your Grace," Brigham acknowledged.
"And, second," Honor continued, "let's get some lighter units through as quickly as we can. Admiral Oversteegen, I want your squadron to take lead and transit as soon as you reach the terminus. Admiral Bradshaw and Commodore Fanaafi, you and your Saganami-Cs are attached to Admiral Oversteegen." She smiled grimly. "If the Havenites are still trying to keep an eye on the Junction, let's give whoever's minding their drones something else to worry about."

Chapter Sixty Eight
"Hyper footprint!" Spiropoulo said suddenly. "Multiple hyper footprints at seven-two-point-niner-three million kilometers!"
* * *
Honor Alexander-Harrington's eyes were brown ice as Theophile Kgari, in a virtuoso display of astrogation, dropped the massed superdreadnoughts of Eighth Fleet exactly where she'd told him to in a single jump right out of the center of the resonance zone.
She didn't look at the pathetic remnants of Third Fleet's icons. Didn't even glance at the other icons, representing Lester Tourville's task force. She had attention only for Genevieve Chin's superdreadnoughts, and her voice was a frozen soprano sword.
"Engage the enemy, Andrea," Lady Dame Honor Alexander-Harrington said.
* * *
Genevieve Chin's heart began beating once again, and her instant instinct to break off eased a bit as the range registered. At almost seventy-three million kilometers, the new arrivals were well outside even MDMs' powered range. Besides, there were only thirty-eight of them—less than half her own strength, even if all of them were wallers and not carriers.
"Turn us around, Andrianna," she said. "It looks like we've got some fresh customers."
* * *
Eighth Fleet released the five thousand Apollo pods which had been tractored to its SD(P)s' hulls, then spent another three minutes rolling additional pods. In all, it deployed a total of 7,776, almost exactly half its total ammunition allotment, given the Andermani ships' lighter magazine capacity.
Then it fired.

In essence, what I'm hearing, is we now know where RFC places Theisman, in relation to Honor. An inadvertent reveal?

Because obviously Theisman never considered Honor putting a third of her total pod loadout on the hull.

Late edit: Forgive me for using pincer in the place of mousetrap. Damfino, except we were recently discussing flanks and pincers in a current thread, and I haven't quite left that playground. And because I couldn't remember mousetrap.

cthia wrote:In essence, what I'm hearing, is we now know where RFC places Theisman, in relation to Honor. An inadvertent reveal?

Because obviously Theisman never considered Honor putting a third of her total pod loadout on the hull.

Late edit: Forgive me for using pincer in the place of mousetrap. Damfino, except we were recently discussing flanks and pincers in a current thread, and I haven't quite left that playground. And because I couldn't remember mousetrap.

The real problem is that there were over 3 times more podnaughts equipped with Apollo than Theisman expected. For that matter, the control missile multiplied the number of missiles that could be controlled by a factor of 8. IIRC, 8th Fleet hadn't fired enough missiles at Lovat to reveal this.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:

cthia wrote:In essence, what I'm hearing, is we now know where RFC places Theisman, in relation to Honor. An inadvertent reveal?

Because obviously Theisman never considered Honor putting a third of her total pod loadout on the hull.

Late edit: Forgive me for using pincer in the place of mousetrap. Damfino, except we were recently discussing flanks and pincers in a current thread, and I haven't quite left that playground. And because I couldn't remember mousetrap.

The real problem is that there were over 3 times more podnaughts equipped with Apollo than Theisman expected. For that matter, the control missile multiplied the number of missiles that could be controlled by a factor of 8. IIRC, 8th Fleet hadn't fired enough missiles at Lovat to reveal this.

Understood, and thanks.

Being that it is Theisman, though, he should have expected all of Eighth Fleet's podnaughts to be armed with Apollo. And, he should also have been aware of Eighth Fleet's order of battle, unless it had been reinforced since the last encounter.

cthia wrote:

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:
The real problem is that there were over 3 times more podnaughts equipped with Apollo than Theisman expected. For that matter, the control missile multiplied the number of missiles that could be controlled by a factor of 8. IIRC, 8th Fleet hadn't fired enough missiles at Lovat to reveal this.

Understood, and thanks.

Being that it is Theisman, though, he should have expected all of Eighth Fleet's podnaughts to be armed with Apollo. And, he should also have been aware of Eighth Fleet's order of battle, unless it had been reinforced since the last encounter.

Their intelligence told then Manticore and Grayson could not field substantially more Apollo equipped sd(p)s due to their production tempos. Their intel sId there was a brief window that Beatrice could work. Unfortunately, they didn't know about the new Andermani ships.

This Intel is the only reason Beatrice even took place.

To clarify my sentiment upstream, Honor was certainly the MVP during the BoM. So even if she had Third Fleet, she should also have Apollo.

I think I need a reread as well. I'm not aware that Eighth Fleet had three times as many podnaughts than at Lovat.

Which implies that Theisman could have killed her with Beatrice if Eighth Fleet had not been reinforced.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:The real problem is that there were over 3 times more podnaughts equipped with Apollo than Theisman expected. For that matter, the control missile multiplied the number of missiles that could be controlled by a factor of 8. IIRC, 8th Fleet hadn't fired enough missiles at Lovat to reveal this.

There were 18 Apollo SD(P) at Lovat, doubled to ~38 at Manticore. They also fired a dozen heavy salvos per Havenite force in Lovat.

Theemile wrote:Their intelligence told then Manticore and Grayson could not field substantially more Apollo equipped sd(p)s due to their production tempos. Their intel sId there was a brief window that Beatrice could work. Unfortunately, they didn't know about the new Andermani ships.

This Intel is the only reason Beatrice even took place.

I'm sure they allowed for the possibility of additional Apollo SD(P)s joining Eighth Fleet - and intended to destroy them as well, before they showed up over Nouveau Paris. As above, Eighth Fleet only had 18 wallers at Lovat - and Chin's Fifth Fleet was given a hundred wallers to deal with it.

The main Havenite intelligence failure was in their assumption of Apollo FTL control's maximum effective range being around 65 million km - something which accidentally got cut from the published novel. It's in the pearls somewhere.

These intelligence failures don't materially change the battle. If they knew Manticore had more Apollo ships coming into service, carrying out Beatrice becomes more urgent. If they knew Apollo's range Fifth Fleet could have escaped, but by summoning it early Tourville lost the battle.

There is a chance that, knowing Eighth Fleet had doubled in size, Tourville could have realised Third Fleet was too small and waited longer. However, this is mitigated by the constant uncertainty of how many ships Manticore might leave to defend Trevor's Star.

Indeed, one alternative scenario is that Beatrice takes place at the same time Eighth Fleet is going to Nouveau Paris. In that case, Haven could have turned a guaranteed war defeat into a draw.

munroburton wrote: If they knew Apollo's range Fifth Fleet could have escaped, but by summoning it early Tourville lost the battle.

Due to Kuzak having been beaten senseless with David's plot hammer 2nd fleet was already in the process of destroying 3rd fleet when 5th showed up. Chin wasn't needed to do this. So yes, it was clearly too early.

What's so annoying about AAC (and what makes it that terrible book) is that none of this forced idiocy was needed. The RHN plan and forces were perfectly adequate to achieve the planned outcome. If home fleet had used recon drones to detect the donkeys I still suspect home fleet would have been shattered by the volume of missile fire at 60 million KM.

If Kuzak had pods deployed and started firing at maximum range 5th still would have beaten her like a drum.

It's just really irritating.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:

cthia wrote:In essence, what I'm hearing, is we now know where RFC places Theisman, in relation to Honor. An inadvertent reveal?

Because obviously Theisman never considered Honor putting a third of her total pod loadout on the hull.

Late edit: Forgive me for using pincer in the place of mousetrap. Damfino, except we were recently discussing flanks and pincers in a current thread, and I haven't quite left that playground. And because I couldn't remember mousetrap.

The real problem is that there were over 3 times more podnaughts equipped with Apollo than Theisman expected. For that matter, the control missile multiplied the number of missiles that could be controlled by a factor of 8. IIRC, 8th Fleet hadn't fired enough missiles at Lovat to reveal this.

My theory is that at the BOM, 8th Fleet was also launching an Alpha Apollo Strike of far more pods and missiles that could be actively guided by the ships' relatively limited number of FTL control links. These missiles were still so devastatingly effective because the Apollo Control Missiles were each linking their 8 attack missiles into distributed aperture sensor nets and probably communicating with each other to execute a well coordinated attack even without FTL comm fire control to more than a minority of the Apollo control missiles.

Would Eighth Fleet have taken it on the Chin, had she only had 18 podnaughts?

Or would it, Chin's chin, have absorbed the blow?

Or, forsaking layman's terms, could Honor have wiped chin off, if she hadn't been reinforced?