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OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?

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OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Fri Dec 27, 2019 6:26 am

cthia
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AT ALL COSTS

I love At All Costs something fierce! I can read that cavalry charge over and over ad nauseam and still get goose bumps! It was the motivation behind my immensely popular Honor at the Bat.

But so many people dislike the mechanics of it, like kzt. I respect his opinion, people have a right to like what they like, it's human nature. But it leaves me scratching my head. I suppose AAC is the perfect example of needing to ignore an author's literary license so you can keep your eyes focused on the prize.

My sister hates Sci-Fi because "It treats you like you're your mother's biggest dummy." :roll:

When I tell her that she misses the forest for the trees, she simply rolls her eyes back at me and asks, "Why do they have to put trees in space where they don't belong?" :roll:

At any rate, I'd like to better understand what all the negativity is all about, regarding one of my most favorite reads.

Right off hand, I can recall kzt's ill appreciation of Theodosia Kuzak's handling of Third Fleet. However, the rumor mill has it, that the grapevine said, that Honor was originally supposed to die at the helm of Third Fleet herself, thus, not faring much better than Kuzak.

Now, I don't know why the Honor of the alternate universe wouldn't have Apollo even if she had Third Fleet, because she was certainly MVP by then.

So, kzt, spill the spoiled beans found in AAC.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by kzt   » Fri Dec 27, 2019 2:12 pm

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Quick answer:

The book before the battle is a thicket of plots that needs a chainsaw wielding editor. Also, David doesn't do romance well.

In the battle the plot hammer was used with abandon and there were lots of idiot balls in play on the RMN side.

Like, to name one, perhaps it might have been useful for Home fleet to have at least considered launching some of those extremely stealthy 10,000g recon drones, the ones that can get close enough to read the name painted on the hull? The ones that every ship has sufficient numbers of that nobody every worries about running out of? The ones that would have been sending FTL images in real time of the PRH ships deploying these huge numbers of pods?

And what's more annoying to me is there was no reason for this crap other then to save David a few pages. In a 12,000 page book.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Sun Jan 05, 2020 12:30 am

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It is hinted at in the Dead Horses thread that AAC has been discussed to death and should be put to rest. Perhaps that is a bit premature, since I haven't read an appropriate synopsis. Let me get it off my shoulders . . .

AAC boasts the only book in the series featuring the still exciting cavalry charge. AAC is worth it's weight in gold for those pages alone. Don't you remember the tears and excitement of the sound of the bugle call when you were a kid? You'll always miss it if you're playing with the sliderule app on your smartphone when you're at the concert.

I'm genuinely sad. If I were that type of reader, I think my first read through would be for substance.

When I parodied Casey at the Bat with Honor at the Bat using material from AAC, one poster told me he cried at one particular stanza. It's the cavalry charge that gets you right about, here, every time. Just like AAC.

If somehow I'll have precognizance before being stranded on an island with limited space for books, AAC will make the cut every time. Even if I have to sit on my fricking suitcase to get it to close.

If the cavalry charge is missing in your copy, return it for a refund.

Sometimes when people read books, they appear to be as mind blind as Nimitz. It reminds me of how I've always fantasized about slapping the shit out of Siskell WITH Ebert.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:22 pm

cthia
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I know everyone wants to move on from AAC, but there's one thing I'd like to know. Simply link me to this particular discussion, no need to beat the poor horse anymore . . .

if Honor had jumped the gun and hypered in-system allowing herself to be ambushed and pincered, what would have been her best response? And would she have survived it?

Simply a link'll do. Thanks in advance.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:19 pm

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She had her half her entire pod load on the outside of her fleet. She kills every RHN ship in the system in a single salvo.

That would be her best response.

Of course, as soon as she jumps in 2nd fleet dies in a huge series of fireballs. It's well inside the maximum range of Apollo (way outside RHN effective range) and it takes about 36 Apollo pods to kill a RHN ship.

The when the ambush force jumps in she kills them too, hypering out before their missiles arrive. They, however, cannot, because the cycle time is too short.

It's a very sad day on Haven.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by cthia   » Mon Jan 06, 2020 8:43 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:She had her half her entire pod load on the outside of her fleet. She kills every RHN ship in the system in a single salvo.

That would be her best response.

Of course, as soon as she jumps in 2nd fleet dies in a huge series of fireballs. It's well inside the maximum range of Apollo (way outside RHN effective range) and it takes about 36 Apollo pods to kill a RHN ship.

The when the ambush force jumps in she kills them too, hypering out before their missiles arrive. They, however, cannot, because the cycle time is too short.

It's a very sad day on Haven.

I thought so too, but when I consider that Beatrice was formulated to kill Eighth Fleet, and that it was Theisman's plan, what gives? Theisman is one of the best strategists Haven's got. And he knew Eighth Fleet had, 'whatever those god-awful missiles are called.' But hopefully only Eighth Fleet. It was mostly true.

Anyways, why did RFC have me biting my nails hoping Honor wouldn't jump the gun, allowing the Havenites to spring the trap?

RFC had us, me anyways, thinking the Salamander's sixth sense saved her again.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by n7axw   » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:20 pm

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cthia wrote:
kzt wrote:She had her half her entire pod load on the outside of her fleet. She kills every RHN ship in the system in a single salvo.

That would be her best response.

Of course, as soon as she jumps in 2nd fleet dies in a huge series of fireballs. It's well inside the maximum range of Apollo (way outside RHN effective range) and it takes about 36 Apollo pods to kill a RHN ship.

The when the ambush force jumps in she kills them too, hypering out before their missiles arrive. They, however, cannot, because the cycle time is too short.

It's a very sad day on Haven.

I thought so too, but when I consider that Beatrice was formulated to kill Eighth Fleet, and that it was Theisman's plan, what gives? Theisman is one of the best strategists Haven's got. And he knew Eighth Fleet had, 'whatever those god-awful missiles are called.' But hopefully only Eighth Fleet. It was mostly true.

Anyways, why did RFC have me biting my nails hoping Honor wouldn't jump the gun, allowing the Havenites to spring the trap?

RFC had us, me anyways, thinking the Salamander's sixth sense saved her again.



MEHH... ACC was a good book, kzt not withstanding. He is entitled to his opinion. But I enjoyed the story.

Don

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When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by kzt   » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:27 pm

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n7axw wrote:

MEHH... ACC was a good book, kzt not withstanding. He is entitled to his opinion. But I enjoyed the story.

Don

-

I haven't ceremoniously burned it, but it was the weakest of the books until the SLN war porn sequence started.
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by bert953   » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:02 am

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kzt wrote:
n7axw wrote:

MEHH... ACC was a good book, kzt not withstanding. He is entitled to his opinion. But I enjoyed the story.

Don

-

I haven't ceremoniously burned it, but it was the weakest of the books until the SLN war porn sequence started.


Hmmmm, methinks its re-read time. I've read on Basilisk Station & Honor of the Queen many times, but it looks like its time to re-read the short victorious war and the sequels to get a better handle on things I've previously missed. Of course this includes AAC!
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Re: OK KZT: What's wrong with AAC?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:44 am

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cthia wrote:I thought so too, but when I consider that Beatrice was formulated to kill Eighth Fleet, and that it was Theisman's plan, what gives? Theisman is one of the best strategists Haven's got. And he knew Eighth Fleet had, 'whatever those god-awful missiles are called.' But hopefully only Eighth Fleet. It was mostly true.

Anyways, why did RFC have me biting my nails hoping Honor wouldn't jump the gun, allowing the Havenites to spring the trap?

RFC had us, me anyways, thinking the Salamander's sixth sense saved her again.

Basically, if Eighth Fleet had come through with Third Fleet and gotten mousetrapped the same way, it would have been a battle of mutual annihilation much the same way Hypatia was. Eighth Fleet wouldn't have had the time to get nearly as many pods onto their hulls, so a one-launch knockout wouldn't have been possible. The first launch would have been big but not decisive.

After that the battle would play out as it did. Third/Eighth and Fifth Fleets would chew massive holes in each other until 5th fleet lost the range (assuming they lasted that long). The end result would be a badly mauled Third/Eighth facing off against the badly mauled Second Fleet, with Eighth Fleet's survivors being short enough on Apollo pods to prevent a super long range sniping battle. At that point the only thing that could have stopped Second Fleet would be the arrival of the Lynx, Basilisk, and Gryphon pickets, none of which had the podnoughts needed to take out a significant fleet, and the system defense pods at Sphynx, which could do the job if they dared fire them.

Of course, at every stage there could be a ton of plot armor and authorial fiat - for example if all of the Apollo ships got knocked out, or none of them.
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