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Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)

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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Dec 29, 2019 8:38 am

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cthia wrote:I don't recall any stigma present around either incident of rape.

Did I miss something?


No, there was no stigma mentioned but the attempt was also not widely known. The point was that fearing a stigma could have been part of the reason she didn't report it in the first place.
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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by Brigade XO   » Sun Dec 29, 2019 2:58 pm

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Young knew Nimitz would be a problme and made sure that he was elsewhere -and far away- when he made the attempt on Honor. He planned it all out and had accomplices.

Actually, I'm almost surprized that Nimitz didn't run into Young later at the Academy and remove parts of his anatomy--like his throat- just castrating him isn't Treecat style.

Honor wouldn't have brought Nimitz with her to Warlock. 1st because she was going to have a difficult enough time being there as Young's subordinate and 2nd because Nimitz -if he had been allowed into the cabin with her (which I highly doubt, Young not being a compleat idiot) might have caused an "incident" and Honore was already raw from being banished to Basilisk with her butcherd cruiser.
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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:25 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:Young knew Nimitz would be a problme and made sure that he was elsewhere -and far away- when he made the attempt on Honor. He planned it all out and had accomplices.

Actually, I'm almost surprized that Nimitz didn't run into Young later at the Academy and remove parts of his anatomy--like his throat- just castrating him isn't Treecat style.

Honor wouldn't have brought Nimitz with her to Warlock. 1st because she was going to have a difficult enough time being there as Young's subordinate and 2nd because Nimitz -if he had been allowed into the cabin with her (which I highly doubt, Young not being a compleat idiot) might have caused an "incident" and Honore was already raw from being banished to Basilisk with her butcherd cruiser.

Unwitting accomplices. I bet Nimitz had an APB out for him.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by kzt   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:30 pm

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cthia wrote:Unwitting accomplices. I bet Nimitz had an APB out for him.

What makes you think that?
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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:41 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I don't recall any stigma present around either incident of rape.

Did I miss something?


No, there was no stigma mentioned but the attempt was also not widely known. The point was that fearing a stigma could have been part of the reason she didn't report it in the first place.

What stigma could be serious enough to fuel such fear?

1. Our traditional stigma of rape that we all agree doesn't exist in the Honorverse?

2. The stigma of being ugly enough to rape but not to date?

3. The stigma of being a genie in the navy with anger management issues, thus perpetuating the stereotype?

4. The stigma of being a lowly yeomen?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 1:49 pm

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cthia wrote:What stigma could be serious enough to fuel such fear?

1. Our traditional stigma of rape that we all agree doesn't exist in the Honorverse?

2. The stigma of being ugly enough to rape but not to date?

3. The stigma of being a genie in the navy with anger management issues, thus perpetuating the stereotype?

4. The stigma of being a lowly yeomen?


I sure hope (1) isn't the case. I'm hoping that stigma be gone in our society in a generation or two at most, but who knows? Things may swing back and forth and that kind of stigma could come back. But yes, that's the stigma that I was thinking about.

Anyway, we've got enough insight into Honor's thinking. She didn't report because she thought no one would believe her, being a lowly, ugly yeoman's daughter, that Pavel Young, the Earl of North Hollow's son, who usually dated the most beautiful women on the planet, would have taken an interest in her. It would have been a he said-she said case. Even if she won, she was worried about the scandal this would cause in the Navy, which would mark her forever as the one who brought it forward.
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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 2:31 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:What stigma could be serious enough to fuel such fear?

1. Our traditional stigma of rape that we all agree doesn't exist in the Honorverse?

2. The stigma of being ugly enough to rape but not to date?

3. The stigma of being a genie in the navy with anger management issues, thus perpetuating the stereotype?

4. The stigma of being a lowly yeomen?


I sure hope (1) isn't the case. I'm hoping that stigma be gone in our society in a generation or two at most, but who knows? Things may swing back and forth and that kind of stigma could come back. But yes, that's the stigma that I was thinking about.

Anyway, we've got enough insight into Honor's thinking. She didn't report because she thought no one would believe her, being a lowly, ugly yeoman's daughter, that Pavel Young, the Earl of North Hollow's son, who usually dated the most beautiful women on the planet, would have taken an interest in her. It would have been a he said-she said case. Even if she won, she was worried about the scandal this would cause in the Navy, which would mark her forever as the one who brought it forward.

I just can't understand why being a yeomen is something to be ashamed of, in a time and place like the Honorverse, but I don't hail from her neck of the woods, so. At any rate, she was a Yeoman's daughter, but neither of her parents were run of the mill yeomen. Not by a long shot.

As far as her feeling ugly, makes no sense to me either. Everyone went through her awkward prolong induced stage of development. And most beautiful women are beautiful because of biosculpt. I suppose there was no way she could have known Young's perverted history with women.

At any rate, men don't generally rape women because of their looks, but because they are weak, vulnerable, accessible, and because they are perverted criminals.

Late edit: OTOH, one of my female friends said that men can never know what living in the shadow of a beautiful mother can do to your self-esteem if you are not beautiful as well. So . . .

At any rate, being bonded is supposed to, in many ways, make you stronger.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:58 pm

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cthia wrote:I just can't understand why being a yeomen is something to be ashamed of, in a time and place like the Honorverse, but I don't hail from her neck of the woods, so. At any rate, she was a Yeoman's daughter, but neither of her parents were run of the mill yeomen. Not by a long shot.


We don't have to understand why she felt that way, only that she did. I agree with you that I don't understand why she wouldn't report, but I'm not the type of person who rapists seek (cis, white male).

As for her parents and her "pedigree", it was very understated in the beginning. She refers to her father as "a retired medical doctor", not one of the foremost neurosurgeons in the kingdom (though that was 25 years prior). Honor was probably brought up to explicitly not lean on her family's history and to earn a name for herself by her own actions. So her upbringing would could have made her think her own origins humble and similarly never consider that her best friend, the fifth person in line for succession to the throne, would fight for her. Compare that to the explicit use of the family's name, wealth and connections that Pavel Young must have been brandishing.

At any rate, men don't generally rape women because of their looks, but because they are weak, vulnerable, accessible, and because they are perverted criminals.


You're probably right, though there has to be some level of sexual allure, otherwise they wouldn't be rapists, they'd just be kidnappers, wife beaters, molesters or murderers. And at the risk of straying into current politics, when the current president of the US was accused of harassing women, one of his defence arguments was "they're ugly".

This is a difficult topic, one I'm sure David had a lot to think about when he inserted as Honor's backstory. How about we discuss space piracy?
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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:21 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
cthia wrote:I just can't understand why being a yeomen is something to be ashamed of, in a time and place like the Honorverse, but I don't hail from her neck of the woods, so. At any rate, she was a Yeoman's daughter, but neither of her parents were run of the mill yeomen. Not by a long shot.


We don't have to understand why she felt that way, only that she did. I agree with you that I don't understand why she wouldn't report, but I'm not the type of person who rapists seek (cis, white male).

As for her parents and her "pedigree", it was very understated in the beginning. She refers to her father as "a retired medical doctor", not one of the foremost neurosurgeons in the kingdom (though that was 25 years prior). Honor was probably brought up to explicitly not lean on her family's history and to earn a name for herself by her own actions. So her upbringing would could have made her think her own origins humble and similarly never consider that her best friend, the fifth person in line for succession to the throne, would fight for her. Compare that to the explicit use of the family's name, wealth and connections that Pavel Young must have been brandishing.

At any rate, men don't generally rape women because of their looks, but because they are weak, vulnerable, accessible, and because they are perverted criminals.


You're probably right, though there has to be some level of sexual allure, otherwise they wouldn't be rapists, they'd just be kidnappers, wife beaters, molesters or murderers. And at the risk of straying into current politics, when the current president of the US was accused of harassing women, one of his defence arguments was "they're ugly".

This is a difficult topic, one I'm sure David had a lot to think about when he inserted as Honor's backstory. How about we discuss space piracy?

Again, everybody's logic and arguments hold water, and are easily understood. But when it comes to a hero, or heroine, certainly of the Honor Harrington variety of heavy mettle, it doesn't. IMO.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by Jonathan_S   » Mon Dec 30, 2019 4:30 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:No doubt she should have reported it. I would hope that 2000 years of civilisation evolution and 500 of a free and equitable Manticoran society would mean victims suffer no stigma after reporting rape. But you're right about the stigma against genies, which she knew she was and might come to light in the proceedings.

You're also right that she could have mounted the best defence possible, with the Crown's help, who would be likely eager to take on the North Hollows. But she didn't know she could: she likely didn't consider her friendship with Mike extending that far (remember that Mike reported to the Commandant behind Honor's back). And even if she did know, being the centre of the media's attention was definitely not what she wanted. She was also aware that the Navy still had the cliques of patrons and the North Hollows had friends who could and would (and did try to!) derail her career.

So when her rationality reasserted itself, she made a conscious choice to let it go. To her later detriment.
I'm not sure how much pressure Lord North Hollow could have brought through his files on an attempt to publicly try and convict Pavel for attempted rape. Even without being able to hold the treat of torpedoing war funding over peoples heads he might have been able to get the events hushed up with Pavel simply no longer in the Navy. (After all while not as critical as funding the start of the war, this was still during the pre-war build-up and enough blackmailed Lords could have blocked that funding if Lord North Hollow had held their feet to the fire over it)

That still might leave Pavel in a position to pursue a vendetta against Honor. But probably not significantly more-so that he did after she refused to report him (since he was operating under the belief that he had been reported and got only a slap on the wrist by people afraid to anger his father)
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