Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 15 guests

Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Dec 21, 2019 4:14 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1586
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

In this week's episode of Science-fiction and Futurism with Isaac Arthur, "Space Pirates". When he began discussing the topic, I thought immediately about piracy in the Honorverse. By the end of the episode, Isaac nominated On Basilisk Station as the book of the month to his audience. So we may be getting a handful of new readers who nitpick about details coming to the forums soon.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzlaLJIhh5I

As usual, his criticism of some sci-fi happens when authors have to handwave some problem away caused y having perpetual motion devices or power generation so big that the fundamentals of economy would be quite different. But he did praise RFC for having a well-thought out universe and addressing some of the consequences of the technology.

On the topic of space piracy itself, he does mention it's likely to occur on regions with corrupt governments, ineffective policing, during times of conflict or all three. Which just happens to be the case in Silesia. He mentions these conditions are likely to happen to communities who choose isolation, such as also we've found about the Verge during the Free Brotherhood and later in Saganami's time.

And he also talks about how piracy only makes sense when you can ship things over interstellar distances for less cost than producing them locally. Which in the Honorverse, we know to be the case, though not shipping of bulk ore, but shipping manufactured products and specialties.

PS: I also take Isaac's cue from his Space Warfare series that all rules are the First Rule of War.
Top
Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by Theemile   » Sat Dec 21, 2019 6:53 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4154
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

ThinksMarkedly wrote:In this week's episode of Science-fiction and Futurism with Isaac Arthur, "Space Pirates". When he began discussing the topic, I thought immediately about piracy in the Honorverse. By the end of the episode, Isaac nominated On Basilisk Station as the book of the month to his audience. So we may be getting a handful of new readers who nitpick about details coming to the forums soon.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzlaLJIhh5I

As usual, his criticism of some sci-fi happens when authors have to handwave some problem away caused y having perpetual motion devices or power generation so big that the fundamentals of economy would be quite different. But he did praise RFC for having a well-thought out universe and addressing some of the consequences of the technology.

On the topic of space piracy itself, he does mention it's likely to occur on regions with corrupt governments, ineffective policing, during times of conflict or all three. Which just happens to be the case in Silesia. He mentions these conditions are likely to happen to communities who choose isolation, such as also we've found about the Verge during the Free Brotherhood and later in Saganami's time.

And he also talks about how piracy only makes sense when you can ship things over interstellar distances for less cost than producing them locally. Which in the Honorverse, we know to be the case, though not shipping of bulk ore, but shipping manufactured products and specialties.

PS: I also take Isaac's cue from his Space Warfare series that all rules are the First Rule of War.


Good catch. Time to batten the hatches and review the OBS notes. For anyone interested, David published Teacher's Notes for OBS a couple years ago - it's available at Baen's Free library.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:31 pm

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12859
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Theemile wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:In this week's episode of Science-fiction and Futurism with Isaac Arthur, "Space Pirates". When he began discussing the topic, I thought immediately about piracy in the Honorverse. By the end of the episode, Isaac nominated On Basilisk Station as the book of the month to his audience. So we may be getting a handful of new readers who nitpick about details coming to the forums soon.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzlaLJIhh5I

As usual, his criticism of some sci-fi happens when authors have to handwave some problem away caused y having perpetual motion devices or power generation so big that the fundamentals of economy would be quite different. But he did praise RFC for having a well-thought out universe and addressing some of the consequences of the technology.

On the topic of space piracy itself, he does mention it's likely to occur on regions with corrupt governments, ineffective policing, during times of conflict or all three. Which just happens to be the case in Silesia. He mentions these conditions are likely to happen to communities who choose isolation, such as also we've found about the Verge during the Free Brotherhood and later in Saganami's time.

And he also talks about how piracy only makes sense when you can ship things over interstellar distances for less cost than producing them locally. Which in the Honorverse, we know to be the case, though not shipping of bulk ore, but shipping manufactured products and specialties.

PS: I also take Isaac's cue from his Space Warfare series that all rules are the First Rule of War.


Good catch. Time to batten the hatches and review the OBS notes. For anyone interested, David published Teacher's Notes for OBS a couple years ago - it's available at Baen's Free library.



Good news!

I've been doting on OBS since I joined the forum. It's the greatest work Weber produced. For everyone who wasn't introduced to the Honorverse by way of OBS first. . . I'm sad for you. You don't know what you missed by losing your virginity out of turn.

On piracy: Isaac, piracy also makes sense when it gives you acess to goods that otherwise aren't available to you.

Sometimes piracy makes sense simply for the value of being a pain in the ass to your enemy.

P.S. OBS can make a strong case for the best Space Opera ever written, hands down.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:55 pm

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1586
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Theemile wrote:Good catch. Time to batten the hatches and review the OBS notes. For anyone interested, David published Teacher's Notes for OBS a couple years ago - it's available at Baen's Free library.


Link: https://www.baen.com/ya_guides/Basilisk ... 063011.pdf

I didn't get started with OBS. I started with the Manticore Ascendant Series, then OBS.

On OBS, one thing that I miss is the use of Manticoran time-keeping. In the first couple of books (I don't remember when he stopped), David has the characters speak and think of time-keeping in Manticoran weeks, months and years. He later explained that time-keeping aboard ships and space stations was done in Terran reckoning, but official documents kept Manticore dates. But during the book progression also shows people thinking in terms of T-days and T-years instead of M-years like they did in the beginning.

Did David get tired of making the math? Was it maybe an early feedback that readers got confused? Or that was unnecessary and pointless obfuscation?

Maybe the narrator just translates for us poor Terran readers, like Tolkien translated from Westron to English (and Rohirric to Old English) and like regular press converts from parsecs to light-years from academic publications.
Top
Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by Theemile   » Sat Dec 21, 2019 9:29 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4154
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

cthia wrote:
Good news!

I've been doting on OBS since I joined the forum. It's the greatest work Weber produced. For everyone who wasn't introduced to the Honorverse by way of OBS first. . . I'm sad for you. You don't know what you missed by losing your virginity out of turn.

On piracy: Isaac, piracy also makes sense when it gives you acess to goods that otherwise aren't available to you.

Sometimes piracy makes sense simply for the value of being a pain in the ass to your enemy.

P.S. OBS can make a strong case for the best Space Opera ever written, hands down.


2 quibs - 1st, piracy of an enemy during war is either Privateering or Commerce Raiding depending on the ownership of the unit doing it (and piracy with a letter of Marque or by a naval unit during peace is an Act of War). If you're not doing it officially, you are just a "petty" criminal (enemy or no), and can't truly call the other side the enemy, because in truth, pirates are the enemy of every civilized nation.

2nd - personally, I'd vote for HotQ as one of the Best - It just feels like David was more in his stride writing that and had worked off the rough edges of his style.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by Theemile   » Sat Dec 21, 2019 10:43 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4154
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

In light of a possible on-rush of newer posters, I want to ask again if we want to place a sticki topic of "Dead-Horse" subjects to point newbs to. I brought this up before, and it want no where - several people thought it was a good idea, but no one wanted to assist and we even argued whether some items (Like the recently mentioned Corvette) should be on the list.

If we did such a list, the first post should have a explanation that this is a list of long-discussed dead-horse topics, any new readers are recommended to find out more on any subject by going to the Pearls (with a link), or by searching the Forum, and it is recommended to do so before posting on the board. below would be the list of "Major Dead-horse topics" and a list to individual posts on the subjects. the topic should be locked so it stays nice and clean.

While we were discussing it, I wrote up drafts for a couple posts - like the one everyone can agree on - The Weapon That Should Never Be Named - The Grav Lance.

Conversation Topic: Grav Lances - aka The Weapon That Should Never Be Named (TWTSNBN)

Common Post: Posters are positing new uses for a Grav Lances or advanced Grav Lances

Discussion Outcome: David has been inundated by so many ideas for Grav Lances over the years that the device has pretty much been dropped from the series.

The use of the Grav Lance on the Courageous was not new, the device already had existed for years and normally was installed on Capital ships which had the spare mass to carry a system like the Grav Lance which had little chance of being used. The new concept was to mount it on a small hull, which could turn the ship into a Capital ship killer. In production, this was intended to be a CA, but the only available test bed at the time was the soon to be retired CL, the Courageous. Unfortunately, the tests showed that the idea was a 1 trick pony – after it worked the first time, any possible light ship which looked like it was about to attempt such a maneuver was hammered by every opposing capital ship.

It must be noted, the Grav Lance is not a weapon system. It is an engineering system that uses a ship's wedge to temporarily destabilize and drop the sidewall of an opposing ship. An additional weapons system must then be used to damage/destroy the opposing ship – in the case of the Courageous, this was an array of energy torpedoes, which otherwise would have been useless against sidewalls.

The Grav Lance requires the drive system of a hull of about 85 Ktons at a minimum to function – it cannot work without all the hardware necessary to generate the ship’s wedge. It also has a max range of less than 125,000 KM –less than 1/3 the range of an energy torpedo, 1/4rd the range of Lasers, 1/8th the range of Grasers. Any ship attempting to use them had to survive through missile range and 85% of energy range to do so. In Honorverse Naval terms, this is the equivalent of knife fighting in a (small) coat closet.

Manticorian miniaturization and research since 1900 has not overall affected the above stats. It cannot be placed on a significantly smaller hull, it cannot have a noticeably longer range, it will never do physical damage on its own, it will never drop a warship’s wedge. Manticore did not launch the intended CA class with the Lance, did not install lances in any SD(p) classes and removed the lances from some of the existing capital ship classes in refits over the years as it simply was never used as energy battles became rarer and rarer in combat.

Because of the above, The Grav Lance will never be placed on an economical mine, will never be placed in a reasonably sized missile, and will never be mounted on a LAC. It will never destroy ships on it’s own. It will never have millions of KM’s of range. It probably will never be used in combat again.
Links to David’s Wisdom:
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by George J. Smith   » Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:07 am

George J. Smith
Commodore

Posts: 853
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:48 am
Location: Ross-on-Wye UK

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
I didn't get started with OBS. I started with the Manticore Ascendant Series, then OBS.

On OBS, one thing that I miss is the use of Manticoran time-keeping. In the first couple of books (I don't remember when he stopped), David has the characters speak and think of time-keeping in Manticoran weeks, months and years. He later explained that time-keeping aboard ships and space stations was done in Terran reckoning, but official documents kept Manticore dates. But during the book progression also shows people thinking in terms of T-days and T-years instead of M-years like they did in the beginning.

Did David get tired of making the math? Was it maybe an early feedback that readers got confused? Or that was unnecessary and pointless obfuscation?

Maybe the narrator just translates for us poor Terran readers, like Tolkien translated from Westron to English (and Rohirric to Old English) and like regular press converts from parsecs to light-years from academic publications.


OBS was written first and portrays a time when WH travel was commonplace therefore using "T time" to tie everything together was more practical (Grayson notwithstanding) :lol: , the Manticore Ascendant series is set in a time before the WH junction was discovered and all times/dates were therefore local to Manticore.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
Top
Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by Daryl   » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:40 am

Daryl
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3173
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:57 am
Location: Queensland Australia

I'd agree about OBS being the best Space Opera ever written, even compared to Heinlein, Asimov, Smith, and other golden era authors. Generally Space Opera is comprised of huge ideas, and not always perfectly written.
A purely personal view I have is, that RFC hadn't fully considered the full ramifications of his Honorverse physics in his early books. Basically perpetual motion machines with free energy, where the missile inertia becomes a bigger potential explosion than any conceivable nuke.
The fact that he successfully rode that tiger all the way through his series shows just how brilliant he is.
Top
Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:41 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12859
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
Good news!

I've been doting on OBS since I joined the forum. It's the greatest work Weber produced. For everyone who wasn't introduced to the Honorverse by way of OBS first. . . I'm sad for you. You don't know what you missed by losing your virginity out of turn.

On piracy: Isaac, piracy also makes sense when it gives you acess to goods that otherwise aren't available to you.

Sometimes piracy makes sense simply for the value of being a pain in the ass to your enemy.

P.S. OBS can make a strong case for the best Space Opera ever written, hands down.


2 quibs - 1st, piracy of an enemy during war is either Privateering or Commerce Raiding depending on the ownership of the unit doing it (and piracy with a letter of Marque or by a naval unit during peace is an Act of War). If you're not doing it officially, you are just a "petty" criminal (enemy or no), and can't truly call the other side the enemy, because in truth, pirates are the enemy of every civilized nation.

2nd - personally, I'd vote for HotQ as one of the Best - It just feels like David was more in his stride writing that and had worked off the rough edges of his style.

Your first quib is true enough, but I wanted to allow for the gray areas that came up in the 'Beowulf - the Karma Suitsya' thread . . . like peace, war, a de facto war or anything else in-between. Like footing the bill on some other navy doing your dirty work for you. Piracy by proxy.

I can understand HotQ being your choice for the blue-ribbon. Personally, I like every single book in the entire series. Yes, even that awful(?) AAC, kzt. The sympathy card I picked out from Hallmark is only meant for you if you didn't hyper in-system via the OBS junction first, before you landed in the HotQ sector of the galaxy.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top
Re: Space piracy (and OBS named SFIA book of the month)
Post by cthia   » Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:57 am

cthia
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 12859
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

Here's the thing. If you began the series with OBS, you'd have an intimacy with the characters like none other. Then you'd be part of her innermost circle and you'd be receiving your own RSVP.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
Top

Return to Honorverse