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A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .

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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Mon Dec 23, 2019 9:25 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:Once again, I must disagree--the nanites are not mapping the existing system. From what we saw with Honor's arm replacement the ability to accurately map neural control does not exist.

Also, the nanites can act in seconds. The assassination on Torch--they did it in two stages--one person infected another who actually did the deed.

Not exaactly. We saw that it was easier to have the arm learn existing neural pathways rather than determine those pathways and then program them into the arm. Then again, Harrington's medical team weren't using self replicating nano tech to do it, either. The nano has days of constant interaction with the host to map out which nerves do what on a very fine scale, something a medical team not using banned tech simply cannot do.

As for the Torch assassin, it was a two stage control mechanism on a single host. While it isn't described, it appears he was more-or-less conventionally "adjusted" to not think about the case he was carrying, then the nano tech was used to force him to trigger the case when he saw Berry. Only one guy was present, and he was injected with the nano some indeterminate time before showing up at the palace. Given the time adjustment is claimed to take, he could have been injected weeks or months ahead of the assassination attempt.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Dec 23, 2019 2:53 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:I disagree--everybody's muscle control is unique. Your body learns how it is wired and how to control your body (we saw Honor having to relearn this with her artificial arm.) If it's possible to use someone else's muscle memory the control must be working at a high enough level that the body's own knowledge of how to control itself can be used. Thus Honor's arm is usable. Her pulsar is not, however, as that is unique to her. Only someone with an identical arm could provide the muscle memory to fire it.


My (amended) point was that, as each person's neural pathways is different, the nanites are programmed with a template of what to learn once they're inside the host's body. How long this "incubation" period is, we don't know. We have no reason to believe it's instantaneous: all known hosts had been carrying the nanites for considerable time before they were triggered. The assassin in Torch (Operation Rat Poison) might have been the quickest, but it was still probably weeks since he wasn't infected on Torch and had to travel there.

And there are probably enough prosthetics that the MAlign could program templates of how to move prosthetic limbs.

But there aren't a lot of built-in weaponry. There's no template to program, no basis for the nanites to know what to search for. If they're incubated for long enough, they might witness Honor shooting in the range and learn replicate those specific impulses, but just as we know about Machine Learning today, you have a huge bias in the data set because all they'll have witnessed is a shooting range. Honor doesn't have the habit of thwarting assassinations with her finger often.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by cthia   » Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:28 pm

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All of the theories of muscle memory is interesting, and certainly possible lacking the author's input. The nanites most likely use a combination of tech.

But I think the theory of muscle memory may be overthinking it. Consider the monkey in this video.

Simply hijacking the main hwy the brain uses to transmit thought, then programming that thought bypasses any need to know how to control the limbs. The thought itself controls the limbs. Subliminal programming.

Certain areas of even a dead brain can cause a limb to move. A neurologist can inadvertently or intentionally make a limb move by touching certain areas of the brain.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:54 pm

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Brigade XO wrote:The assassin on Torch was just the one person and he was a variation on what was done to Mears. A set of nanites was tailored to him and somebody switched out his sample case with one containing the binary toxin.....and he had no idea what he was actualy doing.


My memory is that they had to use another nanite-controlled person to infect him and switch out the case.

Exactly how complicated are these nanites that they can store all this amount of data (muscle memory, targeting criteria, self-destruct parameters- well, kill the host by causing x). They also have to "remember" to dissolve in the host's bloodstream and body once they kill the host or the host dies.
How do you prevent them from killing the host if they are either given an injection for medical reasons or have a medical blood sample take?
Dam complicated and sophisticated little buggers.


Yeah, they're way up there in the handwavium territory.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Mon Dec 23, 2019 11:56 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:I disagree--everybody's muscle control is unique. Your body learns how it is wired and how to control your body (we saw Honor having to relearn this with her artificial arm.) If it's possible to use someone else's muscle memory the control must be working at a high enough level that the body's own knowledge of how to control itself can be used. Thus Honor's arm is usable. Her pulsar is not, however, as that is unique to her. Only someone with an identical arm could provide the muscle memory to fire it.


My (amended) point was that, as each person's neural pathways is different, the nanites are programmed with a template of what to learn once they're inside the host's body. How long this "incubation" period is, we don't know. We have no reason to believe it's instantaneous: all known hosts had been carrying the nanites for considerable time before they were triggered. The assassin in Torch (Operation Rat Poison) might have been the quickest, but it was still probably weeks since he wasn't infected on Torch and had to travel there.

And there are probably enough prosthetics that the MAlign could program templates of how to move prosthetic limbs.

But there aren't a lot of built-in weaponry. There's no template to program, no basis for the nanites to know what to search for. If they're incubated for long enough, they might witness Honor shooting in the range and learn replicate those specific impulses, but just as we know about Machine Learning today, you have a huge bias in the data set because all they'll have witnessed is a shooting range. Honor doesn't have the habit of thwarting assassinations with her finger often.


As far as I can tell you're saying the same thing I was--the arm is controllable normally, the weapon is not.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:38 pm

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Loren Pechtel wrote:As far as I can tell you're saying the same thing I was--the arm is controllable normally, the weapon is not.


Right, I'm agreeing.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by cthia   » Thu Dec 26, 2019 10:43 pm

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For certainty, all of the infections to date were accomplished via a spray, a mist? It reminds me of the FluMist, which for many people is more effective. I wonder if the nanites would be more effective if the MA had more time with the victim to inject the nanites instead of a quick spray. Or, if the spray is necessary.

The convenient spray would also solve the problem of getting close enough to Beth. She would have to be infected by a third party, like her hairdresser.

Aside: I wonder if blood transfusions and finding the proper donor is much more complicated in the Honorverse.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by cthia   » Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:17 am

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Loren Pechtel wrote:
Brigade XO wrote:The assassin on Torch was just the one person and he was a variation on what was done to Mears. A set of nanites was tailored to him and somebody switched out his sample case with one containing the binary toxin.....and he had no idea what he was actualy doing.


My memory is that they had to use another nanite-controlled person to infect him and switch out the case.

Exactly how complicated are these nanites that they can store all this amount of data (muscle memory, targeting criteria, self-destruct parameters- well, kill the host by causing x). They also have to "remember" to dissolve in the host's bloodstream and body once they kill the host or the host dies.
How do you prevent them from killing the host if they are either given an injection for medical reasons or have a medical blood sample take?
Dam complicated and sophisticated little buggers.


Yeah, they're way up there in the handwavium territory.

Substituting my theory upstream would solve all of the problems inherent in being solely reliant on muscle memory.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:01 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Once again, I must disagree--the nanites are not mapping the existing system. From what we saw with Honor's arm replacement the ability to accurately map neural control does not exist.

Also, the nanites can act in seconds. The assassination on Torch--they did it in two stages--one person infected another who actually did the deed.

Not exaactly. We saw that it was easier to have the arm learn existing neural pathways rather than determine those pathways and then program them into the arm. Then again, Harrington's medical team weren't using self replicating nano tech to do it, either. The nano has days of constant interaction with the host to map out which nerves do what on a very fine scale, something a medical team not using banned tech simply cannot do.
I was going to point out this learning period Honor had to go through.

Of course the result of this prolonged learning and retraining period Honor went through almost certainly resulted in a compromise consensus for how the new arm worked with the arm learning impulses but the brain also modifying impulses to alter how the arm worked. Our brains are designed to learn how to move, not to send out unaltered signals indefinitely until out limbs learn. So the signals going down Honor's nerves now almost certainly aren't quite what they were when she had her original arm.


(Though I guess the MAlign nano tech has the additional advantage that any mapping it might attempt is done while all the limbs are still there - so assuming it can measure both the signal and the resulting limb movement it could build up its map simply by watching current movements for a while. Someone replacing a lost limb doesn't have the luxury of mapping how the original used to work.)
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by cthia   » Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:03 pm

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Galactic Sapper wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote:Once again, I must disagree--the nanites are not mapping the existing system. From what we saw with Honor's arm replacement the ability to accurately map neural control does not exist.

Also, the nanites can act in seconds. The assassination on Torch--they did it in two stages--one person infected another who actually did the deed.

Not exaactly. We saw that it was easier to have the arm learn existing neural pathways rather than determine those pathways and then program them into the arm. Then again, Harrington's medical team weren't using self replicating nano tech to do it, either. The nano has days of constant interaction with the host to map out which nerves do what on a very fine scale, something a medical team not using banned tech simply cannot do.
Jonathan_S wrote: I was going to point out this learning period Honor had to go through.

Of course the result of this prolonged learning and retraining period Honor went through almost certainly resulted in a compromise consensus for how the new arm worked with the arm learning impulses but the brain also modifying impulses to alter how the arm worked. Our brains are designed to learn how to move, not to send out unaltered signals indefinitely until out limbs learn. So the signals going down Honor's nerves now almost certainly aren't quite what they were when she had her original arm.


(Though I guess the MAlign nano tech has the additional advantage that any mapping it might attempt is done while all the limbs are still there - so assuming it can measure both the signal and the resulting limb movement it could build up its map simply by watching current movements for a while. Someone replacing a lost limb doesn't have the luxury of mapping how the original used to work.)

Honor did have to go through a learning period. So did the woman in the included video upstream, but that's because the signals are interacting with a completely different interface, an artificial limb. As opposed to nanites controlling natural limbs whose interface has not changed.

And Jonathan, it is incorrect that the brain doesn't simply continue to send out the same signals exhaustively. If you digest the video, it tells you it does. Just because a limb is amputated does not mean the brain discontinues sending the same signals. Per the video, it does not. Which, according to the evidence reported by amputees of experiencing ghost sensations, is intuitive.

Apparently the brain does not alter the old signals. The subject simply has to learn to reconnect and harness the signals, telephone wires if you will, that have already been laid down. Which is intuitive as well, or muscle memory would be shot all to hell.

Again, muscle memory is simply a sub process controlled automatically by the thought. A truth the monkey proves with aplomb.

Please consume the video upstream in it's entirety.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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