A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .

cthia wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I would say that the first allegiance of a Treecat is going to be to the person who they are bonded to not a political entity or system. However; a Treecat recognizes people by their mindglow not their physical appearance and is bonded to the psyche of a person, not their carcass. As a result, when the nanites assert themselves, the Treecat is going to know that the affected person is no longer the same person. The nanite controlled person is already effectively dead from the perspective of a Treecat. This might change if an effective cure is developed.

I certainly agree with the allegiance, I mean, come on, self preservation. But should anyone be allowed anywhere near the Queen who doesn't place her welfare first, other than a civilian? Which might ultimately place Nimitz and Ariel at odds -- in such a copper-plated Ransom of a decision.

Consider that either Honor or Beth falling under compulsion would certainly never be suspected or anticipated, and would be totally shocking, catching everyone unaware and knocking either party totally off balance.

At this point, is Nimitz considered a Queen's officer? Surely he's not considered a civilian?

If Beth or Honor falls under compulsion, a Treecat just might not recognize that medically, the person is still inside. And that the Queen of Manticore is worth saving, even at the sacrifice of others.

To expound on "suspected", if Honor fell under compulsion, no one would know, except the 'Cats of course, but even if they sounded the alarm, no one would suspect any movement by Harrington to be dangerous to friendlies. There must be any reason other than compulsion for Honor to draw a pulser.

Beth drawing a pulser might be alarming enough, indeed, but if Honor drew a pulser her armsmen would be looking elsewhere for threats other than Honor herself. Honor's and Beth's fate would certainly be in the hands of the 'Cats.

cthia wrote:

TFLYTSNBN wrote:I would say that the first allegiance of a Treecat is going to be to the person who they are bonded to not a political entity or system. However; a Treecat recognizes people by their mindglow not their physical appearance and is bonded to the psyche of a person, not their carcass. As a result, when the nanites assert themselves, the Treecat is going to know that the affected person is no longer the same person. The nanite controlled person is already effectively dead from the perspective of a Treecat. This might change if an effective cure is developed.

I certainly agree with the allegiance, I mean, come on, self preservation. But should anyone be allowed anywhere near the Queen who doesn't place her welfare first, other than a civilian? Which might ultimately place Nimitz and Ariel at odds -- in such a copper-plated Ransom of a decision.

Consider that either Honor or Beth falling under compulsion would certainly never be suspected or anticipated, and would be totally shocking, catching everyone unaware and knocking either party totally off balance.

At this point, is Nimitz considered a Queen's officer? Surely he's not considered a civilian?

If Beth or Honor falls under compulsion, a Treecat just might not recognize that medically, the person is still inside. And that the Queen of Manticore is worth saving, even at the sacrifice of others.

cthia wrote:To expound on "suspected", if Honor fell under compulsion, no one would know, except the 'Cats of course, but even if they sounded the alarm, no one would suspect any movement by Harrington to be dangerous to friendlies. There must be any reason other than compulsion for Honor to draw a pulser.

Beth drawing a pulser might be alarming enough, indeed, but if Honor drew a pulser her armsmen would be looking elsewhere for threats other than Honor herself. Honor's and Beth's fate would certainly be in the hands of the 'Cats.

And would their hands be true?

It's kind of like when humans make the decision to pull the plug on a loved one who is in a coma.

Except the 'Cats make the decision instantly.

We do have a survivor of the technique (sorta) remember Crown Princess Adrianne? The assassin was captured alive. It may not be exactly like the nano virus but it's as close as we have. The cats maybe the perfect way to capture a live one. Remember how Nimitz incapacitated the Macabius assassins he killed the first one but all of the rest survived either blinded or faces shredded. You might be able to override the nano virus through a combination of pain, adrenaline and the automatic nervous system.

saber964 wrote:We do have a survivor of the technique (sorta) remember Crown Princess Adrianne? The assassin was captured alive. It may not be exactly like the nano virus but it's as close as we have. The cats maybe the perfect way to capture a live one. Remember how Nimitz incapacitated the Macabius assassins he killed the first one but all of the rest survived either blinded or faces shredded. You might be able to override the nano virus through a combination of pain, adrenaline and the automatic nervous system.

Not sure those cases are good parallels. Crown Princess Adrienne's assassination attempt was in 1651 PD, over 250 T-years before the new nanovirus. It's highly unlikely that the technology is nearly the same. The would-be assassin was under compulsion, not nanite-driven muscle memory activation.

Nimitz' incapacitation of the Maccabeus assassins was don for expediency. When you weigh 9 kg and you're up against a dozen 80-kilo men with weapons, you dispatch each as quickly as possible. If he can do it with a slash towards the soft tissue of the eye, instead of having to slash their throats deeply, he'll do it.

cthia wrote:. . . or simply a copper-plated Ransom.

The 'reecats are 'asked with protecting the GA from nanite compulsion. What are their orders, kill on [cue queue]?


Scenario 1: Beth suddenly falls under compulsion, seizes a pulser and intends to shoot Honor.

1. What does Ariel do?
2. What does Nimitz do?
3. What does Honor do?
4. What does the Queen's Own do?
5. What does Honor's Armsmen do?

Scenario 2: Honor suddenly falls under compulsion, seizes a pulser and intends to kill the Queen of Manticore.

1. What does Ariel do?
2. What does Nimitz do?
3. What does the Queen's Own do?
4. What does Honor's Armsmen do?

What is the measure of a Treecat's morality?

Reaction time is the difference between life, and, being filled full of lead.

.

I don't know what I was thinking, but in the second scenario I intentionally omitted the question of what Beth would do if Honor went under. Why should I assume that Beth doesn't know how to defend herself if push comes to shove.

I wonder if Beth knows hand to hand combat or can use a pulser herself. I also wonder if Honor's other abilities would be available to her while under compulsion, since she would specifically be instructed to use a pulser. If not, under the right circumstances, Beth might be able to take her out if she knows kung fu, or crystal goblet upside the head.

saber964 wrote:We do have a survivor of the technique (sorta) remember Crown Princess Adrianne? The assassin was captured alive. It may not be exactly like the nano virus but it's as close as we have. The cats maybe the perfect way to capture a live one. Remember how Nimitz incapacitated the Macabius assassins he killed the first one but all of the rest survived either blinded or faces shredded. You might be able to override the nano virus through a combination of pain, adrenaline and the automatic nervous system.

That assassin was the victim of "conditioning", basically a highly advanced form of brainwashing. Totally different technology.

How much of Honor's sharp shooter skills are available to her while under compulsion? Honor can shoot the lint off a gnat's ass, from the hip.

cthia wrote:How much of Honor's sharp shooter skills are available to her while under compulsion? Honor can shoot the lint off a gnat's ass, from the hip.

But that's hardly muscle memory, which is what we the current theory holds the nanites must be doing. Shooting is a lot of hand-eye coordination, an acquired skill that requires concentration.

By the way, we're not told it's the host's muscle memory. It's entirely possible, even likely, it's someone else's recorded action that gets stored in the nanites. For example, I doubt that Rajampet had practised turning his gun on his head often enough to have formed muscle memory of that. Same with Tim Meares: grabbing armsmen's weapons is not something he'd have had opportunity to do more than once. That means it's unlikely the nanites can control Honor's arm weapon, since the controls are unique to her. Even if they managed to steal her father's confidential records, they wouldn't include the information on how to operate the arm.

In fact, the nanite controlling her body could even make her a worse combatant than other people around. An arm accounts for, what, 15% of the body weight? It's also intricately linked to one's balance -- just try running without moving your arms!

ThinksMarkedly wrote:By the way, we're not told it's the host's muscle memory. It's entirely possible, even likely, it's someone else's recorded action that gets stored in the nanites. For example, I doubt that Rajampet had practised turning his gun on his head often enough to have formed muscle memory of that. Same with Tim Meares: grabbing armsmen's weapons is not something he'd have had opportunity to do more than once. That means it's unlikely the nanites can control Honor's arm weapon, since the controls are unique to her. Even if they managed to steal her father's confidential records, they wouldn't include the information on how to operate the arm.

In fact, the nanite controlling her body could even make her a worse combatant than other people around. An arm accounts for, what, 15% of the body weight? It's also intricately linked to one's balance -- just try running without moving your arms!

There are several indications that it is very much NOT the host's muscle memory. I haven't dug up the quote for it, but there was a discussion after Rajampet shot himself that the person programming the nanites was thankful he didn't have to "walk" Rajampet to the window to jump out. It's "muscle memory", but it's the programmer's muscle memory not the host's. Another indication was the detonation of the bomb on Filareta's flag bridge - the chief of staff entered a code he didn't know - the nanites did, but he did not.

It is possible that the nanites could use Harrington's arm, at least for gross muscle movement. The nanites have to spend some time mapping the host's nervous system - there is enough variation in motor nerves that it's better to map the existing system rather than use a set nerve mapping that may not be entirely accurate for that person. We've only seen one person injected and then activated, but others have been injected out of view but gives an indication it takes at least several days for the nanites to go from injection to ready-to-act.

Translated to Harrington, that means the nanites could map the nerves used to control her arm. Not the hardware itself, but it could hijack and replace the nerve impulses that tell the arm what to do.

Galactic Sapper wrote:Translated to Harrington, that means the nanites could map the nerves used to control her arm. Not the hardware itself, but it could hijack and replace the nerve impulses that tell the arm what to do.

It's possible. But given how much technology, artificial intelligence, and storage has advanced in the Honorverse (namely: it hasn't much) compared to us, I suspect that mapping a totally foreign and one-of-a-kind solution isn't likely doable for nanites.

With that I mean it's possible to control the arm to do arm movements and at leasts keep the host's balance, but not use the built-in weaponry. Synthetic replacements exist and one assumes they were used far more often before regen became available (though we don't know when that was), so it's quite likely Mesa has access to enough of them to program the template in the nanites to learn how to control synthetic limbs. I imagine the hardware is coded to avoid external hacking and only accept neural input.

Implanted weapons were not common at all. And people don't usually learn motor kills of firing bullets from their fingers when they're growing up.