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A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .

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A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 14, 2019 12:25 pm

cthia
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. . . or simply a copper-plated Ransom.

The 'reecats are 'asked with protecting the GA from nanite compulsion. What are their orders, kill on [cue queue]?


Scenario 1: Beth suddenly falls under compulsion, seizes a pulser and intends to shoot Honor.

  1. What does Ariel do?
  2. What does Nimitz do?
  3. What does Honor do?
  4. What does the Queen's Own do?
  5. What does Honor's Armsmen do?


Scenario 2: Honor suddenly falls under compulsion, seizes a pulser and intends to kill the Queen of Manticore.

  1. What does Ariel do?
  2. What does Nimitz do?
  3. What does the Queen's Own do?
  4. What does Honor's Armsmen do?


What is the measure of a Treecat's morality?

Reaction time is the difference between life, and, being filled full of lead.

.
Last edited by cthia on Thu Dec 19, 2019 5:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Dec 14, 2019 2:15 pm

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I would say that the first allegiance of a Treecat is going to be to the person who they are bonded to not a political entity or system. However; a Treecat recognizes people by their mindglow not their physical appearance and is bonded to the psyche of a person, not their carcass. As a result, when the nanites assert themselves, the Treecat is going to know that the affected person is no longer the same person. The nanite controlled person is already effectively dead from the perspective of a Treecat. This might change if an effective cure is developed.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:25 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I would say that the first allegiance of a Treecat is going to be to the person who they are bonded to not a political entity or system. However; a Treecat recognizes people by their mindglow not their physical appearance and is bonded to the psyche of a person, not their carcass. As a result, when the nanites assert themselves, the Treecat is going to know that the affected person is no longer the same person. The nanite controlled person is already effectively dead from the perspective of a Treecat. This might change if an effective cure is developed.


Hi Cthia! Happy Holidays, all :)


Fly, Already effectively dead? If they got any part of the nanites from her flag lieutenant (Tim Meares?), or even if not, they have probably figured out that the compulsion is very temporary; take the person down without killing them, and the nanites die or disperse within a few minutes.

The problem for the victims so far, is that there wasn't anyone aware of the possibility, or in a position to intervene and provide the cushion of time needed for the nanites to become ineffective. It wouldn't be something the victim can do for himself--they'll need to be incapacitated. So treecats with tasers?

Rob
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:16 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Fly, Already effectively dead? If they got any part of the nanites from her flag lieutenant (Tim Meares?), or even if not, they have probably figured out that the compulsion is very temporary; take the person down without killing them, and the nanites die or disperse within a few minutes.

The problem for the victims so far, is that there wasn't anyone aware of the possibility, or in a position to intervene and provide the cushion of time needed for the nanites to become ineffective. It wouldn't be something the victim can do for himself--they'll need to be incapacitated. So treecats with tasers?

Rob


Treecats with blasters! What could go wrong™?

Treecats have very limited concept of future and non-immediacy. Just look at Honor teaching Nimitz to shoot. They didn't have agriculture before humans started settling on Sphinx. Few animals will hoard food for scarce periods too, though treecats did. So as an effect, the disappearance of the mindglow, however temporary, might be sufficient to break the bond and have the treecat attack the body of the person they adopted.

Interesting thought: would the telemphatic bond prevent nanite activation? Or at least disrupt it?
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Dec 14, 2019 4:31 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Treecats have very limited concept of future and non-immediacy. Just look at Honor teaching Nimitz to shoot. They didn't have agriculture before humans started settling on Sphinx. Few animals will hoard food for scarce periods too, though treecats did. So as an effect, the disappearance of the mindglow, however temporary, might be sufficient to break the bond and have the treecat attack the body of the person they adopted.

Interesting thought: would the telemphatic bond prevent nanite activation? Or at least disrupt it?


After thinking a little more, I withdraw this argument.

We know from all the reports of victims of mind control that it's not, in fact, mind control. Rajampet retained his consciousness while his hand moved to pick up his gun and turn on him, long enough for him to realise what was happening and what the Alignment had done to him. The same happened to Yves Grosclaude, the Havenite ambassador to Manticore who aided Giancola and who committed suicide by crashing his aircar. And then there's Honor's perception of the mind of Tim Meares while he was under control: his mind was fighting it.

That leads me to believe the mind and thus the mindglow would not disappear. The bond between the treecat and the person could probably remain.

Though it's also a given there's a darker, sinister action taking place that the treecats and Honor can sense. Similar to the mindglow, but not replacing it(*). That's why treecats can detect the act at all.

(*) actually, I don't remember Honor's exact description after Tim. Need to research the text to confirm this.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Dec 14, 2019 11:22 pm

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Such bodyguards should understand the nature of nanite control at this point. Assuming natural weapons the solution is simple--go for the weapon arm. Cut a tendon and the threat is over, ship them off to the doctor unless the nanites then kill them. Ranged gets trickier, especially since we don't know just how accurate they are. If they're good enough shots the weapon arm is again the target.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Maldorian   » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:04 am

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Private message
. . . or simply a copper-plated Ransom of a decision?

The 'reecats are 'asked with protecting the GA from nanite compulsion. What are their orders, kill on [cue queue]?


Scenario 1: Beth suddenly falls under compulsion, seizes a pulsar and intends to shoot Honor.

What does Ariel do?
What does Nimitz do?
What does Honor do?
What does the Queen's Own do?
What does Honor's Armsmen do?


Scenario 2: Honor suddenly falls under compulsion, seizes a pulsar and intends to kill the Queen of Manticore.

What does Ariel do?
What does Nimitz do?
What does the Queen's Own do?
What does Honor's Armsmen do?


What is the measure of a Treecat's morality?

Reaction time is the difference between life, and, being filled full of lead.


There are a few problems:

1.) You have to make contact to get the nanites into the body, not easy with all the bodyguards around.

2.) The nanites control directly the muscles, not the brain, so, you couldn´t command "kill X". Like the solarian admiral: activate when at your desk, bend down, open the drawer, take the pulser, put it on your head release the trigger. If you don't know the location you couldn´t program the nanites. And it would be difficult to place a weapon in good guarded places.

3.) Honor has a pulsar in her artifical left arm, but it isn´t public knowledge that she has it. Also, the nanites control biological muscles, for a synthetic device like her arm you would need another tec.
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Garth 2   » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:38 am

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cthia wrote:. . . or simply a copper-plated Ransom of a decision?

The 'reecats are 'asked with protecting the GA from nanite compulsion. What are their orders, kill on [cue queue]?


Scenario 1: Beth suddenly falls under compulsion, seizes a pulsar and intends to shoot Honor.

  1. What does Ariel do?
  2. What does Nimitz do?
  3. What does Honor do?
  4. What does the Queen's Own do?
  5. What does Honor's Armsmen do?


Scenario 2: Honor suddenly falls under compulsion, seizes a pulsar and intends to kill the Queen of Manticore.

  1. What does Ariel do?
  2. What does Nimitz do?
  3. What does the Queen's Own do?
  4. What does Honor's Armsmen do?


What is the measure of a Treecat's morality?

Reaction time is the difference between life, and, being filled full of lead.


Scenario 1:
[*] What does Ariel do? - stop her getting infected/sinks claws into Beths arm(s) to stop her
[*] What does Nimitz do? - knock Honor out of the way
[*] What does Honor do? - Shots the gun out of beths hand, "cowboy style"
[*] What does the Queen's Own do? - Nothing they are standing outside of the room
[*] What does Honor's Armsmen do?[/list] - Nothing they are standing outside of the room

Scenario 2:
[*] What does Ariel do? - knock Beth out of the way
[*] What does Nimitz do? - Stop her getting infected/sinks claws into Honors sholderblades(s) to knock her shot off
[*] What does the Queen's Own do? - Nothing they are standing outside of the room
[*] What does Honor's Armsmen do?[/list] - Nothing they are standing outside of the room


Pre - Activation solutions:

I would assume that the Treecat would alert the security at point of infection (due to the odd "happy feel") and both would be sequestered until the nanos had left the body

Also:
1 - Alignment agent or Alignment dupe is immediately caught as the try to give the nanites to the Honor or Beth - problem solved

2 - Modify the bodyguards weapons so needs an either a genetic key or a modern equivalent of a Bluetooth key code so only the bodyguards can use the weapons - problem solved

3 - Honor "trick arm" must need a very specific neural /muscular instruction to be activated and I very much doubt that anyone is going to have access to the records (assuming they exist) to "force Honor to use"
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by tlb   » Sun Dec 15, 2019 6:21 pm

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Posts: 1971
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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:If they got any part of the nanites from her flag lieutenant (Tim Meares?), or even if not, they have probably figured out that the compulsion is very temporary; take the person down without killing them, and the nanites die or disperse within a few minutes.

The problem for the victims so far, is that there wasn't anyone aware of the possibility, or in a position to intervene and provide the cushion of time needed for the nanites to become ineffective. It wouldn't be something the victim can do for himself--they'll need to be incapacitated. So treecats with tasers?

The nanites can live until the subject dies and then they destroyed by the normal decomposition processes. Since we have not seen a case where the nanites activate and the subject survives, how do you extrapolate the highlighted information?
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Re: A copper-plated moral decision for the 'Cats . . .
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:34 pm

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tlb wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:If they got any part of the nanites from her flag lieutenant (Tim Meares?), or even if not, they have probably figured out that the compulsion is very temporary; take the person down without killing them, and the nanites die or disperse within a few minutes.

The problem for the victims so far, is that there wasn't anyone aware of the possibility, or in a position to intervene and provide the cushion of time needed for the nanites to become ineffective. It wouldn't be something the victim can do for himself--they'll need to be incapacitated. So treecats with tasers?

The nanites can live until the subject dies and then they destroyed by the normal decomposition processes. Since we have not seen a case where the nanites activate and the subject survives, how do you extrapolate the highlighted information?

The short window of action before the subject's own nervous system reasserts itself is mentioned explicitly in text. I just don't remember where.

It's one of those narration things that we know but the characters do not. The characters may have deduced something along those lines but they can't be completely confident in that knowledge without having seen it.
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