Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 31 guests

Harrington Genome, and the Mesans

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by Somtaaw   » Thu Dec 05, 2019 11:44 am

Somtaaw
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1060
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2014 10:36 am
Location: Canada

So... the bombshell of Harringtons originally being a Mesan genome, and emigrating to Manticore caused Mesa to write them off as a lost cause has certainly bitten them on the ass enough times just in the modern HH era.


With their Meyerdahl first-wave (dominant, and presumably Mesan) genes giving enhanced strength and higher intelligence + higher aggression levels; the Harringtons wouldn't have been much more than a form of soldier to the Mesans. Possibly in combination with how Mesa's favourite "heavy labour" basis is the same genes as Thandi Palane, who have even higher strength (possibly dexterity) providing the majority of their shocktroops while Harringtons and similar lines are the field commanders.


Some possible scenarios consisting of primarily Alignment/Harrington genomes, to spark some of that discussion and debating to keep the board nice & lively as we wait the now extended period before we see another Honorverse novel (or would we be calling it Kat-verse or Raoul-verse for the next generation? *thinking*)

Question #1) Assuming the parents of Stephanie Harrington (first treecat bonding), several hundred T-years have passed since the Harringtons suddenly moved to Manticore, and they would have been offering what exactly to the Alignment?

There's too much variance between the various sleeper agents we've already seen, such as Audrey's Alpha-line being reporters (no suggestion yet she's got enhanced strength/reflexes herself, but she's an ALPHA not a Gamma, so she surely must?) while other Alpha's were like the McBryde family (1 son security/wetworks, 1 son research, father a system administrator, mother + 1 daughter system renowned artists, 1 daughter leading chemist). Harringtons themselves seem similarly wide-spread like the McBrydes, Honor + Alfred are military, but they surely must have artists, philosphers and scientists among them not counting anybody who married into the family like Alison.



Question #2) How quickly could Mesa adjust to managing to get an agent even remotely far enough into Manticore to overhear that Honor's "part treecat" and can sense emotions?

Surely they must have the Harrington genome from Honor minus 700 T-years, and the fact she now has 2 children, there MUST be data somewhere they can hack to get her actual/current DNA genome to compare how much (and precisely WHAT) genetic drift has occured, plus semi-public records on precisely how many Harringtons have been 'catted. And then attempt to splice their own telempathic abilities into test subjects, after all they've been trying for centuries to experiment on just treecats, just overhearing that Honor can herself would cause a scientific frenzy among Alignment geneticists, and like with MDMs knowing something is possible is half the research already done.


Question #3) Will Mesa try to use the fact the Harringtons were once one of their Alpha-line genomes in some effort to have Honor & family arrested & detained even for a brief time?

In future series where her children inevitably help hunt down the Alignment, Honor herself is almost certainly going to still be able to have easy/rapid access to Queen Liz (or future King Justin) and Protector Mayhew. And by that point in time, more and more of the Alignment's going to be dragged out into the light of day (such as how Audrey O'Hanrahan genetic status), so surely even the most paranoid would have Honor at least locked up in reflex action against the chance she might still be a sleeper just waiting for the right moment, regardless of the fact Elizabeth and Benjamin completely trust her without any doubts (currently and unknowing Harringtons might have been a Mesan sleeper family)
Top
Re: Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:15 pm

TFLYTSNBN
Admiral

Posts: 2307
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

Somtaaw wrote:So... the bombshell of Harringtons originally being a Mesan genome, and emigrating to Manticore caused Mesa to write them off as a lost cause has certainly bitten them on the ass enough times just in the modern HH era.


With their Meyerdahl first-wave (dominant, and presumably Mesan) genes giving enhanced strength and higher intelligence + higher aggression levels; the Harringtons wouldn't have been much more than a form of soldier to the Mesans. Possibly in combination with how Mesa's favourite "heavy labour" basis is the same genes as Thandi Palane, who have even higher strength (possibly dexterity) providing the majority of their shocktroops while Harringtons and similar lines are the field commanders.


Some possible scenarios consisting of primarily Alignment/Harrington genomes, to spark some of that discussion and debating to keep the board nice & lively as we wait the now extended period before we see another Honorverse novel (or would we be calling it Kat-verse or Raoul-verse for the next generation? *thinking*)

Question #1) Assuming the parents of Stephanie Harrington (first treecat bonding), several hundred T-years have passed since the Harringtons suddenly moved to Manticore, and they would have been offering what exactly to the Alignment?

There's too much variance between the various sleeper agents we've already seen, such as Audrey's Alpha-line being reporters (no suggestion yet she's got enhanced strength/reflexes herself, but she's an ALPHA not a Gamma, so she surely must?) while other Alpha's were like the McBryde family (1 son security/wetworks, 1 son research, father a system administrator, mother + 1 daughter system renowned artists, 1 daughter leading chemist). Harringtons themselves seem similarly wide-spread like the McBrydes, Honor + Alfred are military, but they surely must have artists, philosphers and scientists among them not counting anybody who married into the family like Alison.



Question #2) How quickly could Mesa adjust to managing to get an agent even remotely far enough into Manticore to overhear that Honor's "part treecat" and can sense emotions?

Surely they must have the Harrington genome from Honor minus 700 T-years, and the fact she now has 2 children, there MUST be data somewhere they can hack to get her actual/current DNA genome to compare how much (and precisely WHAT) genetic drift has occured, plus semi-public records on precisely how many Harringtons have been 'catted. And then attempt to splice their own telempathic abilities into test subjects, after all they've been trying for centuries to experiment on just treecats, just overhearing that Honor can herself would cause a scientific frenzy among Alignment geneticists, and like with MDMs knowing something is possible is half the research already done.


Question #3) Will Mesa try to use the fact the Harringtons were once one of their Alpha-line genomes in some effort to have Honor & family arrested & detained even for a brief time?

In future series where her children inevitably help hunt down the Alignment, Honor herself is almost certainly going to still be able to have easy/rapid access to Queen Liz (or future King Justin) and Protector Mayhew. And by that point in time, more and more of the Alignment's going to be dragged out into the light of day (such as how Audrey O'Hanrahan genetic status), so surely even the most paranoid would have Honor at least locked up in reflex action against the chance she might still be a sleeper just waiting for the right moment, regardless of the fact Elizabeth and Benjamin completely trust her without any doubts (currently and unknowing Harringtons might have been a Mesan sleeper family)



Honor has killed far to many bad guys and destroyed to many fleets (and devastated one star system) to ever be accused of being a sleeper agent.

However; someone needs to investigate the obvious fact that Treecats have been selectively breeding Harringtons as well as Wintons for enhanced empathic capability. This makes them far more receptive to suggestions by their Treecat masters.
Top
Re: Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by saber964   » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:55 pm

saber964
Admiral

Posts: 2395
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:41 pm
Location: Spokane WA USA

Somtaaw wrote:So... the bombshell of Harringtons originally being a Mesan genome, and emigrating to Manticore caused Mesa to write them off as a lost cause has certainly bitten them on the ass enough times just in the modern HH era.


With their Meyerdahl first-wave (dominant, and presumably Mesan) genes giving enhanced strength and higher intelligence + higher aggression levels; the Harringtons wouldn't have been much more than a form of soldier to the Mesans. Possibly in combination with how Mesa's favourite "heavy labour" basis is the same genes as Thandi Palane, who have even higher strength (possibly dexterity) providing the majority of their shocktroops while Harringtons and similar lines are the field commanders.


Some possible scenarios consisting of primarily Alignment/Harrington genomes, to spark some of that discussion and debating to keep the board nice & lively as we wait the now extended period before we see another Honorverse novel (or would we be calling it Kat-verse or Raoul-verse for the next generation? *thinking*)

Question #1) Assuming the parents of Stephanie Harrington (first treecat bonding), several hundred T-years have passed since the Harringtons suddenly moved to Manticore, and they would have been offering what exactly to the Alignment?

There's too much variance between the various sleeper agents we've already seen, such as Audrey's Alpha-line being reporters (no suggestion yet she's got enhanced strength/reflexes herself, but she's an ALPHA not a Gamma, so she surely must?) while other Alpha's were like the McBryde family (1 son security/wetworks, 1 son research, father a system administrator, mother + 1 daughter system renowned artists, 1 daughter leading chemist). Harringtons themselves seem similarly wide-spread like the McBrydes, Honor + Alfred are military, but they surely must have artists, philosphers and scientists among them not counting anybody who married into the family like Alison.



Question #2) How quickly could Mesa adjust to managing to get an agent even remotely far enough into Manticore to overhear that Honor's "part treecat" and can sense emotions?

Surely they must have the Harrington genome from Honor minus 700 T-years, and the fact she now has 2 children, there MUST be data somewhere they can hack to get her actual/current DNA genome to compare how much (and precisely WHAT) genetic drift has occured, plus semi-public records on precisely how many Harringtons have been 'catted. And then attempt to splice their own telempathic abilities into test subjects, after all they've been trying for centuries to experiment on just treecats, just overhearing that Honor can herself would cause a scientific frenzy among Alignment geneticists, and like with MDMs knowing something is possible is half the research already done.


Question #3) Will Mesa try to use the fact the Harringtons were once one of their Alpha-line genomes in some effort to have Honor & family arrested & detained even for a brief time?

In future series where her children inevitably help hunt down the Alignment, Honor herself is almost certainly going to still be able to have easy/rapid access to Queen Liz (or future King Justin) and Protector Mayhew. And by that point in time, more and more of the Alignment's going to be dragged out into the light of day (such as how Audrey O'Hanrahan genetic status), so surely even the most paranoid would have Honor at least locked up in reflex action against the chance she might still be a sleeper just waiting for the right moment, regardless of the fact Elizabeth and Benjamin completely trust her without any doubts (currently and unknowing Harringtons might have been a Mesan sleeper family)



Nit pick Justin is Prince Consort, he can not be king. If you are referring to Crown Prince Roger he can be king
Top
Re: Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by Bluesqueak   » Thu Dec 05, 2019 7:12 pm

Bluesqueak
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 399
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 2:04 pm

Somtaaw wrote:With their Meyerdahl first-wave (dominant, and presumably Mesan) genes giving enhanced strength and higher intelligence + higher aggression levels; the Harringtons wouldn't have been much more than a form of soldier to the Mesans.


I'd say they were another 'covert operative' line like the Hanrahans. It's true that Honor and her father are military, but most of the family seem to be scientists. The increasing tension with Haven is specifically mentioned as Honor's reason for joining the RMN, and may have been Alfred's reason to join the Marines.

Covert line specialising in heavy grav worlds, probably their 'job' was to be keeping an eye on and subtly directing scientific research. The aggression problem (and it is a problem) is another example of those unfortunate faults that Mesa just can't seem to breed out of their lines.
Top
Re: Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Dec 05, 2019 9:11 pm

TFLYTSNBN
Admiral

Posts: 2307
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

Bluesqueak wrote:
Somtaaw wrote:With their Meyerdahl first-wave (dominant, and presumably Mesan) genes giving enhanced strength and higher intelligence + higher aggression levels; the Harringtons wouldn't have been much more than a form of soldier to the Mesans.


I'd say they were another 'covert operative' line like the Hanrahans. It's true that Honor and her father are military, but most of the family seem to be scientists. The increasing tension with Haven is specifically mentioned as Honor's reason for joining the RMN, and may have been Alfred's reason to join the Marines.

Covert line specialising in heavy grav worlds, probably their 'job' was to be keeping an eye on and subtly directing scientific research. The aggression problem (and it is a problem) is another example of those unfortunate faults that Mesa just can't seem to breed out of their lines.


What problem with aggression?

It isn't as if the Harringtons have a habit of killing people or even animals.

Just look at Alfred and Honor. They don't go around killing people. Oh wait. I seem to remember Alfred killing a bunch of people who had abducted Allison Chou. Then there were rumors about another reggrettable incident that he isn't at liberty to talk about. Honor seems to have killed more than a few people too, even if you don't count First and Second Manticore.

Wait! Someone just sent me a transcript of an emergency call to the Sphynx Forestry Service.

"hello, please state the nature of your emergency?"

Young girl talking, "I need an ambulance and a veternarian for a wounded Treecat."

"where are you?"

"I'm in the Copper Wall Mountains, Harrington Steading."

"oh My God! Not again! What Apex Predator did you psychopathic Harrington bitches kill this time? Hexapuma or Peak Bear?"

"Both."

"okay. You killed a Peak Bear and a Hexapuma. Your parents are letting their children run around packing guns again. What did you kill them with this time? Rifle or Pistol?"

After an embarrassed pause the preadolescent girl replies, "neither. I was swimming. All I could get to was my knife."
Top
Re: Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by edgeworthy   » Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:54 pm

edgeworthy
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 68
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 9:34 pm

I'm honestly not convinced that the Harringtons were a "Covert Operative" Line. We have seen quite a lot of those and while admittedly many of the dominant character traits may well be entirely environmental they don't seem to have much in common with Honor or Alfred.
The covert lines are very deceitful and Honor is almost completely guileless. She is very direct and often about as subtle as a lead pipe. For Mesan operatives lying is like breathing.
Honor is however very good at deceptive tactics.
It is possible that the Harringtons were intended as long term Infiltrators, working their way onto Beowulf by the backdoor. Perhaps they were a "Grey Eminence" Line for Mesa to wield some control in a system in could not directly influence.
Notably many of the Alpha Lines are almost indistinguishable from the "High-End" Slave Lines. There are several cases of the souped-up libido being a common trait. This is not an obvious thing with the Harringtons, although they do seem to have very satisfied partners.
All of the Harringtons do seem to be very introspective and self-reliant, although I doubt that rugged individualism is something The Alignment has much use for or in any way encourages.

It would help if we knew why Mesa arranged for the Harringtons to be part of the Meyerdahl first-wave?
Top
Re: Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:01 am

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1586
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

edgeworthy wrote:It would help if we knew why Mesa arranged for the Harringtons to be part of the Meyerdahl first-wave?


I don't think the two are connected. The Meyerdahl genome mod was well-known, so it likely occurred before the founding of Mesa. Whether Mesa further tinkered with Meyerdahl subjects is unknown, but not relevant. The Harringtons being an Alpha line is probably a distinct occurrence.

Richard and Marjorie knowing they were Meyerdahl is an interesting concept. In another thread, I speculated whether they knew whether they had been a Mesa line or if it was one of their parents. If they knew, then they might have been dissatisfied enough with the Mesan goals and simply fled to the middle of nowhere to escape that. If that's the case, they may have some notes or material that the Harrington family may be keeping and that Raoul or Katherine could find out.
Top
Re: Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:23 am

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1586
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Somtaaw wrote:With their Meyerdahl first-wave (dominant, and presumably Mesan) genes giving enhanced strength and higher intelligence + higher aggression levels; the Harringtons wouldn't have been much more than a form of soldier to the Mesans. Possibly in combination with how Mesa's favourite "heavy labour" basis is the same genes as Thandi Palane, who have even higher strength (possibly dexterity) providing the majority of their shocktroops while Harringtons and similar lines are the field commanders.


Hello Somtaaw

As others have posted, I don't think aggressiveness equates with labour lines. More importantly, an alpha line definitely does not equate to labour lines. Alpha lines are the crème de la crème in the Alignment society (and the kernel of the core of the centre of the issue why Beowulf fought the concept!) and destined to be leaders, scientists, artists. Like the Ih'valla caste of the pre-Occupation Bajor in Star Trek.

However, their genes may have been cross-pollinated among the labour lines, indeed.

Question #1) Assuming the parents of Stephanie Harrington (first treecat bonding), several hundred T-years have passed since the Harringtons suddenly moved to Manticore, and they would have been offering what exactly to the Alignment?

There's too much variance between the various sleeper agents we've already seen, such as Audrey's Alpha-line being reporters (no suggestion yet she's got enhanced strength/reflexes herself, but she's an ALPHA not a Gamma, so she surely must?) while other Alpha's were like the McBryde family (1 son security/wetworks, 1 son research, father a system administrator, mother + 1 daughter system renowned artists, 1 daughter leading chemist). Harringtons themselves seem similarly wide-spread like the McBrydes, Honor + Alfred are military, but they surely must have artists, philosphers and scientists among them not counting anybody who married into the family like Alison.


Agreed, the Harrington line probably deviated quite a lot from the LRPB's goals, even with dominant genes. We're talking 350 T-years between Stephanie and Honor's births, without supervision, partner selection and possibly gene-splicing. Even if the Harrington clan as like the Habsburgs or the Targaryens and intermarried, Honor is at most 50% Harrington and Raoul is 25%. Katherine is 0% Harrington genome!

And as others have said, the majority of the Harrington clan seems to have found its calling in the Sphinx Forestry Service and sciences. Alfred and Honor appear to be the first to join the military.

Question #2) How quickly could Mesa adjust to managing to get an agent even remotely far enough into Manticore to overhear that Honor's "part treecat" and can sense emotions?

Surely they must have the Harrington genome from Honor minus 700 T-years, and the fact she now has 2 children, there MUST be data somewhere they can hack to get her actual/current DNA genome to compare how much (and precisely WHAT) genetic drift has occured, plus semi-public records on precisely how many Harringtons have been 'catted. And then attempt to splice their own telempathic abilities into test subjects, after all they've been trying for centuries to experiment on just treecats, just overhearing that Honor can herself would cause a scientific frenzy among Alignment geneticists, and like with MDMs knowing something is possible is half the research already done.


Not bloody likely. They've known all along that she's a lost alpha line and they've known about treecats since Stephanie's days anyway. They've been trying to acquire treecats from back then and never managed to. They've been trying to insert spies into the RMN upper echelons and have had very limited success.

The only thing that has recently changed is Honor confiding in a few more people with her secret. The more people know a secret, the bigger the chance one of them will let it slip.

What's more, I'm not convinced that the telempathic ability is related to the genome. Honor's own development grew by leaps during stressful situations, especially during the attack on Benjamin Mayhew and aboard PNS Tepes and on Hades. We've also got indications that Raoul has even stronger abilities than Honor and Alfred, despite the fact that he's genetically only one-quarter Alfred. And it remains to be seen whether Katherine develops noticeable abilities, since she's got zero Harrington genome.

Finally, even if they found out, it takes two to transmit and they still have no treecats and will not ever get a live one. Any treecat that found itself captured would fight to escape or suicide, even without knowing that they're being held hostage by the parties responsible for the Yawata Strike.
Top
Re: Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Fri Dec 06, 2019 12:56 am

Robert_A_Woodward
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 309
Joined: Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:29 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
edgeworthy wrote:It would help if we knew why Mesa arranged for the Harringtons to be part of the Meyerdahl first-wave?


I don't think the two are connected. The Meyerdahl genome mod was well-known, so it likely occurred before the founding of Mesa. Whether Mesa further tinkered with Meyerdahl subjects is unknown, but not relevant. The Harringtons being an Alpha line is probably a distinct occurrence.

Richard and Marjorie knowing they were Meyerdahl is an interesting concept. In another thread, I speculated whether they knew whether they had been a Mesa line or if it was one of their parents. If they knew, then they might have been dissatisfied enough with the Mesan goals and simply fled to the middle of nowhere to escape that. If that's the case, they may have some notes or material that the Harrington family may be keeping and that Raoul or Katherine could find out.


The best I can tell, Meyerdahl had been settled for about 1000 years when Richard et al moved to Sphynx. Which means that is far more likely that the Mesa Alignment used Meyerdahl First Wave mods than the Harringtons have any Mesan modifications.
----------------------------
Beowulf was bad.
(first sentence of Chapter VI of _Space Viking_ by H. Beam Piper)
Top
Re: Harrington Genome, and the Mesans
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Dec 07, 2019 8:23 pm

Brigade XO
Admiral

Posts: 2600
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:31 am
Location: KY

It is just possible that the Alignment could get samples of Alfred's blood or tussue or Honor or her children or her siblings. How? Medical labs. Probably the military labs would be easier than the private one(s) Honor or her parents when on Grayson, have been using but still it would take finding someone in the labs/medical practices who would aquire a sample that should have been destroyed. Then you have to get it off planet (pick one or two) and then get it all the way back to Darius. Not so simple a job.
At that point it would have to be analysed to see how the subject differed from 1) early people in the lines for which the Alignment has samples and Honor from her child and sibs. The answers would not be that straight forward.

Now, it is also possible that once having aquired samples of the various people, the Alignment could create clone lines from the samples and/or also cross the clone lines to see what happens. Since this is the current Honoverse and medical/genetice medicine being what it is, they could try all sorts of variations. Probably the worst thing they could do --for so many reasons-- would be clone Honor and create a sizable group of clone-sibs (both male and female) and raise them as Janissaries with full indoctrination in the Alignment (and significant physical training over years) plus training them to be either Naval commanders or a varitety of other careers for the Alignment. Honor raised as an Alpha in the Alignment Navy or a command specialist as her uncle on Beowulf could be formidable
Thing is it will take 20 plus years for that to produce someone who has even the basic skills at any particular task set and you won't have created the personality that is Honor Harrington

Interesting to speuclate though.
Top

Return to Honorverse