Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 22 guests

Name other ships in the class

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 6:23 am

Armed Neo-Bob
Captain of the List

Posts: 532
Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:11 pm

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Destroyers in Cutworm weren't bleeding edge combatants, they were stealthy scouts; if the stealth on the older DDs was adequate, why did you need a Culverin?

Also, it is a mistake to assume anything about the class of any destroyers unless there is something explicit in the text: HOS lists one (and only one) class of destroyer being completely phased out--Falcon Class, service ended in 1916. The rest: Havocs, Javelins, and Culverins-- are all still on the books, and can be pulled out of the Reserve if they aren't still serving. There was a Javelin (and Janissary) at Monica, which might have been older ships.


You're right on both accounts, there's a reason for HMS Merlin to be a Falcon without it being named after the magician, which means there's no reason for HMS Mandrake to be a Falcon too. And the other reason it's not a Falcon at Cutworm is what you listed above: all Falcons were out of service by then. The latter was the reason I had in mind.

Now, as to why I think Mandrake and Venturer were Culverin and not some older class is simply because we know that Harrington was getting the best ships possible out of the yards. Culverin was still in production at the time, so those may be new ships. We know most Wolfhounds were sent to Ninth Fleet in Silesia and I don't think we'd heard of Rolands at this point yet. In any case, the names don't fit the theme for either class.


Mandrake is both plant, and a magical component in medieval superstitions, based on its hallucinogenic (poisonous) qualities. I couldn't guess if it is a historical ship name.

Rolands showed up in text at the same moment as Terekhov's deployment to Talbot--his command included the first squadron of Rolands, iirc.

I am really fuzzy on the timeline for the first Cutworm attacks, because there were months in Silesia after 2nd Marsh, then delays in the organization of the Squadrons, etc. But I think any destroyer production would have shifted to Wolfhound in 1916-1917 (first out was in 1919) and Rolands (first out in 1920). I say that because the Wolfhounds' tech is essentially the same as the Sag-B, just with a lighter missile. Janacek didn't build many, because they just had so many destroyers during the ceasefire. Once the war re-ignited, White Haven used any empty slip for an Avalon or Roland.

So I don't think there would be any reason for any Culverins to still be in the builders' yards at the time Cutworm got started. Not even plot. :)

I would think they'd be upgrading the existing ships with launchers for the Mk 36, if they can cram them in.

Also, Harrington was getting the newest of the major combatants; but losses among the Alliance Navies (Zanzibar, Alizon) were sucking in some of those newer (or recent, anyway) ships as well, and Harrington would have been better served (in combat terms) with CL's anyway. Tin cans just weren't the focus at that point.

ymmv, Rob
Top
Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Theemile   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:10 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4141
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Dublin, OH

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Destroyers in Cutworm weren't bleeding edge combatants, they were stealthy scouts; if the stealth on the older DDs was adequate, why did you need a Culverin?

Also, it is a mistake to assume anything about the class of any destroyers unless there is something explicit in the text: HOS lists one (and only one) class of destroyer being completely phased out--Falcon Class, service ended in 1916. The rest: Havocs, Javelins, and Culverins-- are all still on the books, and can be pulled out of the Reserve if they aren't still serving. There was a Javelin (and Janissary) at Monica, which might have been older ships.


You're right on both accounts, there's a reason for HMS Merlin to be a Falcon without it being named after the magician, which means there's no reason for HMS Mandrake to be a Falcon too. And the other reason it's not a Falcon at Cutworm is what you listed above: all Falcons were out of service by then. The latter was the reason I had in mind.

Now, as to why I think Mandrake and Venturer were Culverin and not some older class is simply because we know that Harrington was getting the best ships possible out of the yards. Culverin was still in production at the time, so those may be new ships. We know most Wolfhounds were sent to Ninth Fleet in Silesia and I don't think we'd heard of Rolands at this point yet. In any case, the names don't fit the theme for either class.


Merlin is listed in both the Star Knight and Falcon Lists in Jayne's. As I said before, I would assume the Falcon version was lost prior to 1900 or so. So whatever was in Cutworm was either the Star Knight version, or a replacement for it. If it was a DD, it was either a final flight Chanson or a Culverin, as these were the last 2 destroyers built prior to the Wolfhound.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:35 am

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1561
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Theemile wrote:Merlin is listed in both the Star Knight and Falcon Lists in Jayne's. As I said before, I would assume the Falcon version was lost prior to 1900 or so. So whatever was in Cutworm was either the Star Knight version, or a replacement for it. If it was a DD, it was either a final flight Chanson or a Culverin, as these were the last 2 destroyers built prior to the Wolfhound.


There was no HMS Merlin at Cutworm. I only brought it up because of the name similarity with HMS Mandrake, which was at Cutworm. Anyway, neither "Mandrake" nor "Venturer" fit the theme for any of the classes it could have been.
Top
Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Dec 17, 2019 1:11 am

ThinksMarkedly
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1561
Joined: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:39 am

Anduril-class superdreadnought
  • Mass: 7,506,000 tons
  • Number build: 14
  • Service life: 1889-1918
Is there any other interpretation for Anduril except the name of the sword in The Lord of the Rings reforged for Aragorn / King Elessar? Google lists a military company and an open-source workflow engine, which I'm guessing are named after the sword.

It seems the theme for these 14 is therefore famous sword names, fictional or of uncertain historical accuracy. I'm surprised they started with "Anduril" instead of "Excalibur", though. The wiki does list an HMS Excalibur, a Medusa-class SD(P) that participated at the Second Battle of Marsh (1920). That means it could be a replacement for an earlier Anduril-class HMS Excalibur lost in the first war or even sold by the Janacek Admiralty.

So, in addition to HMS Anduril and HMS Excalibur, I propose:
  1. HMS Narsil, the name Andúril had before being reforged in the late Third Age
  2. HMS Glamdring (Foe-hammer), the sword used by High King Turgon during the Fall of Gondolin and later by Gandalf
  3. HMS Orcrist, also made in Gondolin, mate of Glamdring sword
  4. HMS Anarúth (King's Ire), the word wielded by Elu Thingol, High King of the Sindar in the First Age and later by the Kings of Númenor in the Second Age
  5. HMS Blackfyre, the Valyrian steel sword of Aegon I Targaryen (George R. R. Martin's A Song of Fire and Ice)
  6. HMS Ice, the Valyrian steel sword of House Stark
  7. HMS Heartsbane, the Valyrian steel sword of House Tarly
  8. HMS Gram, the sword that Sigurd used to kill the dragon Fafnir in Norse mythology, also where Lucas Trask hails from, in H. Beam Piper's Space Viking
  9. HMS Joyeuse, Charlemagne's legendary sword, also one of the Sword Worlds from Space Viking
  10. HMS Durendal, Roland's sword, also a Sword World
  11. HMS Flamberge, the last of the four founding Sword Words (Excalibur is the other, not Gram)
  12. HMS Haulteclere, sword of Olivier from The Song of Roland and a Sword World
  13. HMS Colada, One of two swords owned by El Cid, possibly also a Sword World
  14. HMS Balmung, another name for Gram, as found in Nibelungenlied
  15. HMS Kusanagi or Kusanagi-no-Tsurugi, mythical sword of Japanese equivalence to Excalibur
  16. HMS Skofnung, the sword of legendary Danish king Hrólf Kraki
  17. HMS Zufiqar, double bladed sword belonging to Ali, the son-in-law of the prophet Mohamad

I listed more than 14, so of course it couldn't have been all of those.
Top

Return to Honorverse