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Name other ships in the class

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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:36 pm

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Theemile wrote:Actually, by 1919, The RMN had retired all the Ad Astra, Royal Wintons, Majestic and Nouveau Paris DNs and sent them to the breakers. Only 11 DNs remained in service for Honor to take them to Marsh - the remaining Gladiators and Majestics had been sent into the reserve, where the last 6 Majestics from Marsh supposededly followed in 1921.

All this was discussed in War of Honor, and more fully in HoS.


Oh, sorry, I got my timeline wrong. Marsh happened during the High Ridge administration, which means that the selling of the older classes and retiring of all the DNs had happened. The administration would have only kept the most modern ships (Medusas, Sphinx and Gryphons[*]), plus the Samothraces that made sense to as command ships. I don't understand how some of the Sphinx, Medusas or Gryphons weren't similarly-good command ships as the Samothraces, but that's not the point: we know it happened.

So you're right, whatever class the HMS Horatius was, it must be one of those three (not Medusa).

[*] three of the four inhabited planets belonging to the SKM in 1915. Do we expect a new Manticore class? A Lynx class or a San Martino class?
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:22 pm

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Pegasus-class corvettes

These ships seem to be named after the Latin names of the modern constellations visible from Earth. Since there are 88 constellations, we don't seem to be running out of names any time soon. Of the 7 known ships, 4 are named after zodiacal constellations, so there may be a slight preference for those 12 or 13 ones.

Chanson-class destroyers

Theme seems to be types of music ("chanson" means "song" in French) like HMS Aria, HMS Canticle, HMS Madrigal, or the name given to people performing music, like HMS Balladeer (not "ballad"), HMS Choralist, HMS Minstrel, and HMS Troubadour. Since there were 204 ships of this class built and with at least four flights, the theme may have changed. My guess is Flight I was types of music, Flight II the performers. Later flights are difficult, but if I were in charge at the RMN, I'd have chosen musical instruments next, followed by literary trends.

There's an HMS Vixen that doesn't easily fit the theme, though there was a hard rock band with that name from 1980. Could one of the flights be 20th century bands? HMS Beatles and HMS Rolling Stones?

Possible other names. HMS A Capella or just Capella, HMS Chant, HMS Carol, HMS Hymn, HMS Opera (Flight I), HMS Kobzar, HMS Tenor, HMS Soprano, HMS Contralto, HMS Drummer, HMS Bassist (Flight II). Then if I am right, we could have HMS Trombone, HMS Lyre, HMS Harp, HMS Flute, HMS Chimes, etc.

Culverin-class destroyers

The theme for the known ships of this class appears to be weapons, especially medieval and ancient ones, so we might yet see an HMS Musket, HMS Trebuchet, HMS Ballista, HMS Catapult, HMS Ram, etc. There were 72 ships of this class, so I don't think they'd run out of names, but there are two destroyers in Cutworm with no established class: HMS Venturer and HMS Mandrake. Given the date and given that their names don't fit the theme for either the Wolfhound or the Roland classes, I'm thinking they must be Culverin.

There's a Falcon-class HMS Merlin, but I think it's highly unlikely a Falcon would be participating in Cutworm. They were already too fragile for the first war, much less a missile-heavy second war.
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by saber964   » Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:00 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Pegasus-class corvettes

These ships seem to be named after the Latin names of the modern constellations visible from Earth. Since there are 88 constellations, we don't seem to be running out of names any time soon. Of the 7 known ships, 4 are named after zodiacal constellations, so there may be a slight preference for those 12 or 13 ones.

Chanson-class destroyers

Theme seems to be types of music ("chanson" means "song" in French) like HMS Aria, HMS Canticle, HMS Madrigal, or the name given to people performing music, like HMS Balladeer (not "ballad"), HMS Choralist, HMS Minstrel, and HMS Troubadour. Since there were 204 ships of this class built and with at least four flights, the theme may have changed. My guess is Flight I was types of music, Flight II the performers. Later flights are difficult, but if I were in charge at the RMN, I'd have chosen musical instruments next, followed by literary trends.

There's an HMS Vixen that doesn't easily fit the theme, though there was a hard rock band with that name from 1980. Could one of the flights be 20th century bands? HMS Beatles and HMS Rolling Stones?

Possible other names. HMS A Capella or just Capella, HMS Chant, HMS Carol, HMS Hymn, HMS Opera (Flight I), HMS Kobzar, HMS Tenor, HMS Soprano, HMS Contralto, HMS Drummer, HMS Bassist (Flight II). Then if I am right, we could have HMS Trombone, HMS Lyre, HMS Harp, HMS Flute, HMS Chimes, etc.

Culverin-class destroyers

The theme for the known ships of this class appears to be weapons, especially medieval and ancient ones, so we might yet see an HMS Musket, HMS Trebuchet, HMS Ballista, HMS Catapult, HMS Ram, etc. There were 72 ships of this class, so I don't think they'd run out of names, but there are two destroyers in Cutworm with no established class: HMS Venturer and HMS Mandrake. Given the date and given that their names don't fit the theme for either the Wolfhound or the Roland classes, I'm thinking they must be Culverin.

There's a Falcon-class HMS Merlin, but I think it's highly unlikely a Falcon would be participating in Cutworm. They were already too fragile for the first war, much less a missile-heavy second war.

FYI a Vixen is a female Fox and a male Fox is a Todd.
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Theemile   » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:28 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Pegasus-class corvettes

These ships seem to be named after the Latin names of the modern constellations visible from Earth. Since there are 88 constellations, we don't seem to be running out of names any time soon. Of the 7 known ships, 4 are named after zodiacal constellations, so there may be a slight preference for those 12 or 13 ones.

Chanson-class destroyers

Theme seems to be types of music ("chanson" means "song" in French) like HMS Aria, HMS Canticle, HMS Madrigal, or the name given to people performing music, like HMS Balladeer (not "ballad"), HMS Choralist, HMS Minstrel, and HMS Troubadour. Since there were 204 ships of this class built and with at least four flights, the theme may have changed. My guess is Flight I was types of music, Flight II the performers. Later flights are difficult, but if I were in charge at the RMN, I'd have chosen musical instruments next, followed by literary trends.

There's an HMS Vixen that doesn't easily fit the theme, though there was a hard rock band with that name from 1980. Could one of the flights be 20th century bands? HMS Beatles and HMS Rolling Stones?

Possible other names. HMS A Capella or just Capella, HMS Chant, HMS Carol, HMS Hymn, HMS Opera (Flight I), HMS Kobzar, HMS Tenor, HMS Soprano, HMS Contralto, HMS Drummer, HMS Bassist (Flight II). Then if I am right, we could have HMS Trombone, HMS Lyre, HMS Harp, HMS Flute, HMS Chimes, etc.

Culverin-class destroyers

The theme for the known ships of this class appears to be weapons, especially medieval and ancient ones, so we might yet see an HMS Musket, HMS Trebuchet, HMS Ballista, HMS Catapult, HMS Ram, etc. There were 72 ships of this class, so I don't think they'd run out of names, but there are two destroyers in Cutworm with no established class: HMS Venturer and HMS Mandrake. Given the date and given that their names don't fit the theme for either the Wolfhound or the Roland classes, I'm thinking they must be Culverin.

There's a Falcon-class HMS Merlin, but I think it's highly unlikely a Falcon would be participating in Cutworm. They were already too fragile for the first war, much less a missile-heavy second war.



The Falcon "Merlin" must have been lost before 1905. There is a Flight II Star Knight of the same name in the 1905 list.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Dec 01, 2019 12:30 am

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saber964 wrote:FYI a Vixen is a female Fox and a male Fox is a Todd.


I know, but that would fit the theme for the Chanson class even less.

It could be an exception, though. For example, it could be a List of Honour ship that is always a destroyer, like Nike is always a BC.
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by jchilds   » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:48 am

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Maybe HMS Vixen was part of DesRon 1225, along with HMS Dasher, HMS Dancer, HMS Prancer, HMS Comet, HMS Cupid, HMS Donner and HMS Blitzen? :lol:
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:07 am

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jchilds wrote:Maybe HMS Vixen was part of DesRon 1225, along with HMS Dasher, HMS Dancer, HMS Prancer, HMS Comet, HMS Cupid, HMS Donner and HMS Blitzen? :lol:

Does the RMN have a destroyer leader class with a ship named HMS Rudolph?
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sun Dec 01, 2019 11:20 am

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jchilds wrote:Maybe HMS Vixen was part of DesRon 1225, along with HMS Dasher, HMS Dancer, HMS Prancer, HMS Comet, HMS Cupid, HMS Donner and HMS Blitzen? :lol:


That's a much better theme and I don't doubt that all those did exist at least at some point. But that doesn't explain why Vixen would be a Chanson-class.
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:06 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Pegasus-class corvettes

These ships seem to be named after the Latin names of the modern constellations visible from Earth. Since there are 88 constellations, we don't seem to be running out of names any time soon. Of the 7 known ships, 4 are named after zodiacal constellations, so there may be a slight preference for those 12 or 13 ones.

Chanson-class destroyers

Theme seems to be types of music ("chanson" means "song" in French) like HMS Aria, HMS Canticle, HMS Madrigal, or the name given to people performing music, like HMS Balladeer (not "ballad"), HMS Choralist, HMS Minstrel, and HMS Troubadour. Since there were 204 ships of this class built and with at least four flights, the theme may have changed. My guess is Flight I was types of music, Flight II the performers. Later flights are difficult, but if I were in charge at the RMN, I'd have chosen musical instruments next, followed by literary trends.

There's an HMS Vixen that doesn't easily fit the theme, though there was a hard rock band with that name from 1980. Could one of the flights be 20th century bands? HMS Beatles and HMS Rolling Stones?

Possible other names. HMS A Capella or just Capella, HMS Chant, HMS Carol, HMS Hymn, HMS Opera (Flight I), HMS Kobzar, HMS Tenor, HMS Soprano, HMS Contralto, HMS Drummer, HMS Bassist (Flight II). Then if I am right, we could have HMS Trombone, HMS Lyre, HMS Harp, HMS Flute, HMS Chimes, etc.

Culverin-class destroyers

The theme for the known ships of this class appears to be weapons, especially medieval and ancient ones, so we might yet see an HMS Musket, HMS Trebuchet, HMS Ballista, HMS Catapult, HMS Ram, etc. There were 72 ships of this class, so I don't think they'd run out of names, but there are two destroyers in Cutworm with no established class: HMS Venturer and HMS Mandrake. Given the date and given that their names don't fit the theme for either the Wolfhound or the Roland classes, I'm thinking they must be Culverin.

There's a Falcon-class HMS Merlin, but I think it's highly unlikely a Falcon would be participating in Cutworm. They were already too fragile for the first war, much less a missile-heavy second war.


Wikipedia wrote:The merlin (Falco columbarius) is a small species of falcon from the Northern Hemisphere, with numerous subspecies throughout North America and Eurasia
There is a pretty picture on their page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merlin_(bird)

The author probably went to a list of falcon species for some of the Falcon class; I expect once he started on naming the Star Knights, Merlin came up at the same time as "Sorcerer" and "Circe." They'd be distinct from one another because of their icons, and because they'd refer to one as a cruiser, and one as a destroyer. Or, maybe, the proofreaders just didn't notice, since they appeared in different books.

Destroyers in Cutworm weren't bleeding edge combatants, they were stealthy scouts; if the stealth on the older DDs was adequate, why did you need a Culverin?

Also, it is a mistake to assume anything about the class of any destroyers unless there is something explicit in the text: HOS lists one (and only one) class of destroyer being completely phased out--Falcon Class, service ended in 1916. The rest: Havocs, Javelins, and Culverins-- are all still on the books, and can be pulled out of the Reserve if they aren't still serving. There was a Javelin (and Janissary) at Monica, which might have been older ships.

Regarding the Samothrace class, I think it was just cheaper to upgrade them in the time just prewar than to build replacements; iirc, they served as squadron command ships (probably for older DNs) in remote and less significent systems, so the only reason any are still around in 1920 was that survivors of the class weren't around to be scrapped. Giving one of them to Khumalo just underscored the lack of real commitment Janacek's Admiralty had regarding true security in Talbot -- its obsolescence was also likely deliberate, as a way to signal the Solarian League Navy they weren't going to threaten the Protectorates.

Wasn't Trebuchet one of the "Truncheon" Class? Ie, contemporary but cheaper than the Warriors? I have seen it as a ship somewhere in the books. . . aaargh. A Marine cruiser, like Broadsword? . . :D somewhere . . . .

Regards, Rob
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:28 am

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Destroyers in Cutworm weren't bleeding edge combatants, they were stealthy scouts; if the stealth on the older DDs was adequate, why did you need a Culverin?

Also, it is a mistake to assume anything about the class of any destroyers unless there is something explicit in the text: HOS lists one (and only one) class of destroyer being completely phased out--Falcon Class, service ended in 1916. The rest: Havocs, Javelins, and Culverins-- are all still on the books, and can be pulled out of the Reserve if they aren't still serving. There was a Javelin (and Janissary) at Monica, which might have been older ships.


You're right on both accounts, there's a reason for HMS Merlin to be a Falcon without it being named after the magician, which means there's no reason for HMS Mandrake to be a Falcon too. And the other reason it's not a Falcon at Cutworm is what you listed above: all Falcons were out of service by then. The latter was the reason I had in mind.

Now, as to why I think Mandrake and Venturer were Culverin and not some older class is simply because we know that Harrington was getting the best ships possible out of the yards. Culverin was still in production at the time, so those may be new ships. We know most Wolfhounds were sent to Ninth Fleet in Silesia and I don't think we'd heard of Rolands at this point yet. In any case, the names don't fit the theme for either class.
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