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Name other ships in the class

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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Theemile   » Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:44 pm

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fallsfromtrees wrote:There were any number of statues of "Winged Victory" aka Nike in the ancient world. Probably where that name came from.


Yeah, but we know that "Nike" itself has to be a battlecruiser, and 2 other ships in Class were the Hercules and (probably) Hadrian, neither of which lend to "winged Victories".
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Fox2!   » Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:37 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Yeah, but we know that "Nike" itself has to be a battlecruiser, and 2 other ships in Class were the Hercules and (probably) Hadrian, neither of which lend to "winged Victories".


Nike (and Victory) was one of the Lexington class BC the RMN has in the King Michael to Queen Elizabeth II era of Manticore Ascendent. The name appears to have been associated with BCs even before Edward Saganami.
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by saber964   » Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:33 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:On a serious note, I've been trying to figure out what the naming convention (and names ) were for the Samothrace class.

We know the first ship (and Class) appears to be named for the "Winged Victory of Samothrace" statue. The only other known ship of the class is the Hercules, and one probable ship was the Hadrian, which was the flagship lost at Seaford 9.

From that, I'm thinking the class might be named for Roman/Greek monuments/structures

Samothrace - Winged Victory of Samothrace
Hercules - The Pillars of Hercules
Hadrian - Hadrian's Wall

Possible???

Trajan - Trajan's Column
Diocletian - Diocletian's Palace
Septimus - Arch of Septimus Severus
Elgin - the Elgin Marbles

Anyone have any ideas or seen any ship names which fit the convention? (or see a better convention for the 3 ships we know of?) remember, the class was only 7 ships)


With only 7 ships, it's possible to stick to a theme. We may have an HMS Rhodes (after the Colossus of Rhodes) and an HMS Halicarnassus (after the Mausoleum) too. If we go a little further, we could have HMS Alexandria after the lighthouse, which though in Egypt, was actually built during the Hellenistic period.



I don't think they would use Alexandria for the lighthouse. IIRC it was the Pharos lighthouse of Alexandria, but you could also mean the Library of Alexandria.
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:33 pm

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Fox2! wrote:Nike (and Victory) was one of the Lexington class BC the RMN has in the King Michael to Queen Elizabeth II era of Manticore Ascendent. The name appears to have been associated with BCs even before Edward Saganami.


There are five known ships called Nike in Manticoran service, four of which were BCs, and one speculated BC. In chronological order:

  1. MSNS Nike - pre-Kingdon Frigate, one of the ships that were on station when the Jason arrived
  2. HMS Nike (BC-09) - the Lexington- or Triumph-class BC you mentioned; reclassifed as a CA, renumbered CA-103 and probably renamed
  3. HMS Nike (BC-01) - Saganami's ship (given the hull number, she must have been Nike-class)
  4. HMS Nike (BC-???) - Redoubtable-class
  5. HMS Nike (BC-413) - Reliant-class, plank owners: Capt. Honor Harrington, Cmdr. Michelle Henke
  6. HMS Nike (BC-562) - Nike-class (again), plank owner: Capt. Michael Oversteegen

Given that BC-01 was lost in 1672 PD, which is when it was added to the List of Honor, there must have been at least one more Nike, as the Redoubtable-class wasn't launched for another 100 years. Given the jump in hull numbers (see the Hull number discrepancy thread), there may have been even two: one with hull number in the 100s, launched in 1680s, then another with number in the high 100s or low 200s, launched in 1750-1770 or thereabouts. The Redoubtable must have been from the 1810-1820 and was only decommissioned shortly before 1903.
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:41 pm

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Theemile wrote:
ThinksMarkedly wrote:The RMN appears to mostly follow a theme when naming the ships in a given class, like apparently most navies do. Examples of this are the Courageous-class CLs (positive adjectives, like Fearless and Audacious), Illustrious-class CLs, Edward Saganami-class CAs (famous or important navy personnel), and the Invictus-class SD(P)s (the letter I and mostly adjectives).

SNIP

We can continue this ad nauseam.



On a serious note, I've been trying to figure out what the naming convention (and names ) were for the Samothrace class.

We know the first ship (and Class) appears to be named for the "Winged Victory of Samothrace" statue. The only other known ship of the class is the Hercules, and one probable ship was the Hadrian, which was the flagship lost at Seaford 9.

From that, I'm thinking the class might be named for Roman/Greek monuments/structures

Samothrace - Winged Victory of Samothrace
Hercules - The Pillars of Hercules
Hadrian - Hadrian's Wall

Possible???

Trajan - Trajan's Column
Diocletian - Diocletian's Palace
Septimus - Arch of Septimus Severus
Elgin - the Elgin Marbles

Anyone have any ideas or seen any ship names which fit the convention? (or see a better convention for the 3 ships we know of?) remember, the class was only 7 ships)


I thought it was just classical age references--gods, cities, or whatever struck the fancy of the person in BuShips (rfc) doing the naming.

Maybe Wonders of the World? the Pillars of Hercules were the heights of land on either side of the Straits of Gibraltar. Using Wonders as the theme, the Library in Alexandria works, too. Then again, the author is known to be inconsistent when convenient.

Rob
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:46 pm

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snip
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I thought it was just classical age references--gods, cities, or whatever struck the fancy of the person in BuShips (rfc) doing the naming.

Maybe Wonders of the World? the Pillars of Hercules were the heights of land on either side of the Straits of Gibraltar. Using Wonders as the theme, the Library in Alexandria works, too. Then again, the author is known to be inconsistent when convenient.

Rob

The author is also quite capable of quoting Emerson - "A foolish regard for consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:47 pm

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Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I thought it was just classical age references--gods, cities, or whatever struck the fancy of the person in BuShips (rfc) doing the naming.

Maybe Wonders of the World? the Pillars of Hercules were the heights of land on either side of the Straits of Gibraltar. Using Wonders as the theme, the Library in Alexandria works, too. Then again, the author is known to be inconsistent when convenient.


That wouldn't account for Samothrace herself. And despite there being 7 ships in this class, they hadn't planned on 7. Remember, this is the class that a member of the House of Lords said of, "The Admiralty asked for 3, we offered 1, the King settled for 7"

But this might explain the naming: since only 3 were originally asked for, the theme may have been about something that there were 3 items of, but got expanded to the wonders of the ancient world when 4 more got added.
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Theemile   » Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:52 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I thought it was just classical age references--gods, cities, or whatever struck the fancy of the person in BuShips (rfc) doing the naming.

Maybe Wonders of the World? the Pillars of Hercules were the heights of land on either side of the Straits of Gibraltar. Using Wonders as the theme, the Library in Alexandria works, too. Then again, the author is known to be inconsistent when convenient.


That wouldn't account for Samothrace herself. And despite there being 7 ships in this class, they hadn't planned on 7. Remember, this is the class that a member of the House of Lords said of, "The Admiralty asked for 3, we offered 1, the King settled for 7"

But this might explain the naming: since only 3 were originally asked for, the theme may have been about something that there were 3 items of, but got expanded to the wonders of the ancient world when 4 more got added.


Interesting thought - the question then becomes which 3 ships had the original names, and were the Hercules and Hadrian part of the original plan, or the 2nd revised plan (since the 1st revised plan was just 1 ship).

Heck, if so, the 2nd group could have been as simple as Roman heroic names which start with H. If so we could have Hermes, Hades, Hector, or Horatius to choose from. (or fill the other 4 slots, if the only ship name planned was "Samothrace" in the Lords 1 ship plan.

A quick search finds that Hermes is out, as an Apollo CL, the 2 mentioned Hectors were Homer and Agamemnon class BCs, but a Horatius was an SD -the flagship of Task Force 34's 12 Battle Squadron, damaged at the 2nd battle of MARSH!!!)

At that point in the Story line, the only RMN SDs were Samothrace, Sphinx or Gryphon Classes. And Samothrace's are flagships - and old SDs - just the type to be assigned to Honor's Marsh Fleet, along with the 11 remaining Dreadnaughts in service.

I think we identified a 4th Samothrace!
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Wed Nov 06, 2019 10:17 am

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Theemile wrote:At that point in the Story line, the only RMN SDs were Samothrace, Sphinx or Gryphon Classes. And Samothrace's are flagships - and old SDs - just the type to be assigned to Honor's Marsh Fleet, along with the 11 remaining Dreadnaughts in service.

I think we identified a 4th Samothrace!


Wait, what happened to the King William, Anduril and Victory classes there? That's 25+14+36 ships, all less than 30 years old by the time the first war started. It's already unlikely any of them were decommissioned, much less all of them, as we've seen the RMN had decommissioned only 3 DNs at all by the time of the war.

My post on SD and DN on the "discrepancy" thread
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Re: Name other ships in the class
Post by Theemile   » Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:05 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:At that point in the Story line, the only RMN SDs were Samothrace, Sphinx or Gryphon Classes. And Samothrace's are flagships - and old SDs - just the type to be assigned to Honor's Marsh Fleet, along with the 11 remaining Dreadnaughts in service.

I think we identified a 4th Samothrace!


Wait, what happened to the King William, Anduril and Victory classes there? That's 25+14+36 ships, all less than 30 years old by the time the first war started. It's already unlikely any of them were decommissioned, much less all of them, as we've seen the RMN had decommissioned only 3 DNs at all by the time of the war.

My post on SD and DN on the "discrepancy" thread


Between the wars, all 34 surviving Victories were sold at scrap prices to Grayson, along with 17 of the 18 Duquesnes and 3 Havens the RMN had pressed into service after their captures. Grayson just put them in their reserves "IN case" something happened. After the 2nd war started, they, along with the RMn reserves were manned by RMN personnel, though the Grayson bought ships stayed officially in the Grayson Navy.

The remaining King Williams class and Anduril class was sold to Erewhon and other alliance members, or broken up prior to the start of the 2nd war in fall 1919pd. Don't forget, these ships were on the small side and had run the entire length of the war. If my numbers are correct, somewhere between 25 and 40 % of the classes had been destroyed, in comparison with 1/18 for the Victory, Samothrace, Sphinx and Gryphon classes combined. - The Samothrace can only be bundled because we don't have separate loss #s of the class, but there were only 12 losses of Samothrace, Sphinx and Gryphons prior to the March 1st 1920 pd fleet chart (237 Constructed in HoS/225 Survivors on the Fleet chart)

Actually, by 1919, The RMN had retired all the Ad Astra, Royal Wintons, Majestic and Nouveau Paris DNs and sent them to the breakers. Only 11 DNs remained in service for Honor to take them to Marsh - the remaining Gladiators and Majestics had been sent into the reserve, where the last 6 Majestics from Marsh supposededly followed in 1921.

All this was discussed in War of Honor, and more fully in HoS.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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