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Hull number discrepancy

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Re: Hull number discrepancy
Post by Theemile   » Fri Oct 04, 2019 7:38 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Theemile wrote:Now Silesia is a unique example of corruption, weak central govenment, and a modern society with plenty of cash.Outside of the Silesian bubble, piracy is different. David once said Piracy in the Honorverse outside Silesia was more of the rowboat in the dark kind of Piracy. So modded freighter and couriers are probably the main there.


Did we get a description of piracy in Talbott that the Rembrandt Trade Union had to fight off? We know the Hexapuma was there to do some of the job, but ended up finding StateSec renegades, which is hardly your garden variety pirate.


Recent piracy was the work of the State Sec exiles. I think any historical piracy was the work of Frontier Fleet's case Buccaneer.

Sadly every historical case of Piracy in the SL's sphere of influence - especially those that don't make sense - will always circle back to Case Buccaneer when we are looking for a list of probable culprits.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Hull number discrepancy
Post by tlb   » Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:37 am

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Theemile wrote:Now Silesia is a unique example of corruption, weak central govenment, and a modern society with plenty of cash.Outside of the Silesian bubble, piracy is different. David once said Piracy in the Honorverse outside Silesia was more of the rowboat in the dark kind of Piracy. So modded freighter and couriers are probably the main there.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Did we get a description of piracy in Talbott that the Rembrandt Trade Union had to fight off? We know the Hexapuma was there to do some of the job, but ended up finding StateSec renegades, which is hardly your garden variety pirate.

Theemile wrote:Recent piracy was the work of the State Sec exiles. I think any historical piracy was the work of Frontier Fleet's case Buccaneer.

Sadly every historical case of Piracy in the SL's sphere of influence - especially those that don't make sense - will always circle back to Case Buccaneer when we are looking for a list of probable culprits.

That conflicts with RFC's statement that historical piracy, outside of Silesia, was "more of the rowboat in the dark".
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Re: Hull number discrepancy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Fri Oct 04, 2019 8:21 pm

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Theemile wrote:Now Silesia is a unique example of corruption, weak central govenment, and a modern society with plenty of cash.Outside of the Silesian bubble, piracy is different. David once said Piracy in the Honorverse outside Silesia was more of the rowboat in the dark kind of Piracy. So modded freighter and couriers are probably the main there.


Theemile wrote:Recent piracy was the work of the State Sec exiles. I think any historical piracy was the work of Frontier Fleet's case Buccaneer.

Sadly every historical case of Piracy in the SL's sphere of influence - especially those that don't make sense - will always circle back to Case Buccaneer when we are looking for a list of probable culprits.


Sorry, how does Buccaneer have anything to do with piracy? It was conceived only after the Solarian-Manticore War had started, so it couldn't be historical.

I could believe that OFS would want to incentivise piracy in a region it wants to move in, as a pretext for Frontier Fleet to come in, smash them and then "discover" that some government was sponsoring the pirates, creating an excuse for intervention.

But not once they are in. Piracy means loss of profit and smaller margins for cargo transport and increase in cost for the FF. It's much easier to exaggerate the reports to get funding than to actually have piracy.

BTW, how is it that there are three multi-star-system polities around Manticore, originally dated to before the Junction discovery, but almost nowhere else? That the piracy in the Silesian Confederacy was atypical, when there are some 1000 settled planets outside the League?
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Re: Hull number discrepancy
Post by George J. Smith   » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:43 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Sorry, how does Buccaneer have anything to do with piracy? It was conceived only after the Solarian-Manticore War had started, so it couldn't be historical.

snip...



In many cases this was used by FF to pave the way for FF to be "invited" in to assist in clearing the "pirates", and of course OFS had to be involved to "assist" the system polities and to administer the fees paid to SL for the FF assistance, this was discovered by RMN when sifting through the databases of the ships captured at New Tuscany, this practice was happening long before any of the confrontations between RMN & SLN
.
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Re: Hull number discrepancy
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 05, 2019 9:29 am

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Sorry, how does Buccaneer have anything to do with piracy? It was conceived only after the Solarian-Manticore War had started, so it couldn't be historical.

George J. Smith wrote:In many cases this was used by FF to pave the way for FF to be "invited" in to assist in clearing the "pirates", and of course OFS had to be involved to "assist" the system polities and to administer the fees paid to SL for the FF assistance, this was discovered by RMN when sifting through the databases of the ships captured at New Tuscany, this practice was happening long before any of the confrontations between RMN & SLN

Exactly right, here is a discussion from Mission of Honor, chapter 15:
"I'm suggesting that any reasonably prudent, rational flag officer in that situation would proceed cautiously," Terekhov replied, then bared his teeth in something which bore only a passing relationship to a smile. "Of course, what we're actually talking about is a Solly flag officer, so, no, I don't think that's what she's likely to do. Besides, we've all read their contingency plans from Byng's files."
Michelle's mouth tightened.
It wasn't as if the SLN's "contingency planning" had come as a surprise, although she suspected the League would be most unhappy if the Star Empire chose to publicize some of its jucier details. There was "Case Fabius," for example, which authorized Frontier Security commissioners to arrange Frontier Fleet "peacekeeping operations" which "accidentally" destroyed any locally owned orbital infrastructure within any protectorate star system whose local authorities proved unable to "maintain order"—meaning they'd been unable to induce the owners in question to sell to the transstellars OFS had decided would control their economies henceforth. Or "Case Buccaneer," which actually authorized Frontier Security to use Frontier Fleet units—suitably disguised, of course—as "pirates," complete with vanished merchant ships whose crews were never seen again, to provoke crises in targeted Verge systems in order to justify OFS intervention "to preserve order and public safety."
All that was sufficiently interesting reading, but she knew what Terekhov was referring to. Byng's files had also confirmed something ONI had suspected for a long time. In the almost inconceivable event that some neobarb star nation, or possibly some rogue OFS sector governor, attacked the Solarian League (or chose to forcibly resist OFS aggression, although that wasn't specifically spelled out, of course), the SLN had evolved a simple, straightforward strategy. Frontier Fleet, which possessed nothing heavier than a battlecruiser, would screen the frontiers and attempt to slow down any invaders or commerce raiders, while Battle Fleet assembled an overwhelmingly powerful force and headed directly towards the home system of the troublemaker . . . which it would then proceed to reduce to wreckage and transform into yet another OFS protectorate.
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Re: Hull number discrepancy
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Oct 05, 2019 12:09 pm

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tlb wrote:Exactly right, here is a discussion from Mission of Honor, chapter 15:
There was "Case Fabius," for example, which authorized Frontier Security commissioners to arrange Frontier Fleet "peacekeeping operations" which "accidentally" destroyed any locally owned orbital infrastructure within any protectorate star system whose local authorities proved unable to "maintain order"—meaning they'd been unable to induce the owners in question to sell to the transstellars OFS had decided would control their economies henceforth. Or "Case Buccaneer," which actually authorized Frontier Security to use Frontier Fleet units—suitably disguised, of course—as "pirates," complete with vanished merchant ships whose crews were never seen again...


Dammit, that's a codeword reuse problem. Both Buccaneer and Fabius are also names of Operations during the war, which had either nothing or a barely passing resemblance to with the contingency planning.

  • Case Buccaneer: FF pretend to be pirate and attack Verge systems
  • Operation Buccaneer: SLN attacking Core Systems that were still in friendly relations with the GA and destroy their orbital industry
  • Case Fabius: OFS peacekeeping operations accidentally destroying orbital industry in the Verge
  • Operation Fabius: SLN attacking Beowulf's orbital industry before Mycroft came online

Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, with that out of the way, we have that any historical piracy isn't likely to be a rowboat pirate, but instead a disguised FF light unit, probably a Rampart DD. But whatever it was, it's unlikely any Verge system navy could defend itself or protect its commerce. It was easy for the SLN FF to simply bring in something larger than the SDF had. Or even same size, since the SLN crews, however arrogant and set in their ways they may have been, were better trained than the SDF would be.

So, no, an FF probably wasn't much use against a "garden variety pirate" since said pirate was far more likely to be a privateer than a true pirate.
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Re: Hull number discrepancy
Post by tlb   » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:17 pm

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ThinksMarkedly wrote:Sorry for the confusion.

Ok, with that out of the way, we have that any historical piracy isn't likely to be a rowboat pirate, but instead a disguised FF light unit, probably a Rampart DD. But whatever it was, it's unlikely any Verge system navy could defend itself or protect its commerce. It was easy for the SLN FF to simply bring in something larger than the SDF had. Or even same size, since the SLN crews, however arrogant and set in their ways they may have been, were better trained than the SDF would be.

So, no, an FF probably wasn't much use against a "garden variety pirate" since said pirate was far more likely to be a privateer than a true pirate.

But we still have this statement:
Theemile wrote:Now Silesia is a unique example of corruption, weak central govenment, and a modern society with plenty of cash.Outside of the Silesian bubble, piracy is different. David once said Piracy in the Honorverse outside Silesia was more of the rowboat in the dark kind of Piracy. So modded freighter and couriers are probably the main there.

The point would be that any SLN "pirates" would just be in existence long enough to bring in a Frontier Fleet response to "eliminate" the pirate threat. So the only pirate threat that continued would be of the RPG armed speedboat type, outside of Silesia (which was itself outside of the area of OFS interest).

In Silesia our understanding is that the RMN continued to use frigates for an extended period.
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Re: Hull number discrepancy
Post by Theemile   » Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:31 am

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tlb wrote:But we still have this statement:
Theemile wrote:Now Silesia is a unique example of corruption, weak central govenment, and a modern society with plenty of cash.Outside of the Silesian bubble, piracy is different. David once said Piracy in the Honorverse outside Silesia was more of the rowboat in the dark kind of Piracy. So modded freighter and couriers are probably the main there.

The point would be that any SLN "pirates" would just be in existence long enough to bring in a Frontier Fleet response to "eliminate" the pirate threat. So the only pirate threat that continued would be of the RPG armed speedboat type, outside of Silesia (which was itself outside of the area of OFS interest).

In Silesia our understanding is that the RMN continued to use frigates for an extended period.


From an outside point of view, FF/OFS actions, while disguised as piracy, is actually undisclosed commerce raiding/warfare. So there is very little piracy other than that.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Hull number discrepancy
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Tue Oct 08, 2019 3:49 am

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Theemile wrote:
From an outside point of view, FF/OFS actions, while disguised as piracy, is actually undisclosed commerce raiding/warfare. So there is very little piracy other than that.



Not exactly --my take after reading the novels was that the typical pirates were riding around in the same sort of vessel that we've seen before--50 to75 K tons, modified civilian nodes, poor sensors, etc. Something the locals, especially the Rembrandt Navy, could handle on their own.

So, not interesting enough plotwise to engage the attention of the storyteller. Or to up the word count with an infodump about the successes of the ships on the Northern and Southern Patrols, a description of the Rembrandt Navy, or even a short one page description of each of the new planets . . . .

No telling what got edited out.

Rob
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