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KODT in Honorverse

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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by dvdscar   » Tue Aug 20, 2019 7:55 pm

dvdscar
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 4:42 pm

Kaptenen wrote:That is not a accent mark, it is a letter, we have the
letters Å,Ä and Ö and it sounds quite different. Why are
you yanks so indifferent?


Technically, the double-dot mark over the o (or any other vowel character) is called an umlaut. It marks a change in pronunciation over the standard pronunciation of the vowel. The pronunciation change may vary from language to language, but it's fairly common in German, and the way my voice teacher in college explained its effect in German was you shape your mouth as if you're going to pronounce the regular vowel, then you pronounce a long E sound. Trust me, it does sound different. Modern German spelling has mostly done away with it, replacing it with a trailing e. So ö now = oe, ä now = ae, etc. Not sure about how other languages would reflect it.

The MS keyboard shortcut is Ctrl+Shift+colon key then press the desired vowel.

1632 authors use it a lot. :-)
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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Tue Aug 20, 2019 8:06 pm

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1067
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

Kaptenen wrote:That is not a accent mark, it is a letter, we have the letters Å,Ä and Ö and it sounds quite different. Why are you yanks so indifferent?

dvdscar wrote:Technically, the double-dot mark over the o (or any other vowel character) is called an umlaut. It marks a change in pronunciation over the standard pronunciation of the vowel. The pronunciation change may vary from language to language, but it's fairly common in German, and the way my voice teacher in college explained its effect in German was you shape your mouth as if you're going to pronounce the regular vowel, then you pronounce a long E sound. Trust me, it does sound different. Modern German spelling has mostly done away with it, replacing it with a trailing e. So ö now = oe, ä now = ae, etc. Not sure about how other languages would reflect it.

The MS keyboard shortcut is Ctrl+Shift+colon key then press the desired vowel.

1632 authors use it a lot. :-)

As the Wikipedia article said whether it is considered a separate letter or a letter plus a diacritic mark depends on the language. I see no reason to doubt that in Kaptenen's language it is considered a separate letter. Note that the Council for German Orthography considers Ä/ä, Ö/ö, Ü/ü, and ẞ/ß to be distinct letters.

I think that German stands alone in allowing an alternative (ö = oe, ä = ae), but I am interesting in hearing what experts in other languages say.
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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by Hornblower   » Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:37 am

Hornblower
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2014 4:45 am
Location: Germany

tlb wrote:
Kaptenen wrote:That is not a accent mark, it is a letter, we have the letters Å,Ä and Ö and it sounds quite different. Why are you yanks so indifferent?

dvdscar wrote:Technically, the double-dot mark over the o (or any other vowel character) is called an umlaut. It marks a change in pronunciation over the standard pronunciation of the vowel. The pronunciation change may vary from language to language, but it's fairly common in German, and the way my voice teacher in college explained its effect in German was you shape your mouth as if you're going to pronounce the regular vowel, then you pronounce a long E sound. Trust me, it does sound different. Modern German spelling has mostly done away with it, replacing it with a trailing e. So ö now = oe, ä now = ae, etc. Not sure about how other languages would reflect it.

The MS keyboard shortcut is Ctrl+Shift+colon key then press the desired vowel.

1632 authors use it a lot. :-)

As the Wikipedia article said whether it is considered a separate letter or a letter plus a diacritic mark depends on the language. I see no reason to doubt that in Kaptenen's language it is considered a separate letter. Note that the Council for German Orthography considers Ä/ä, Ö/ö, Ü/ü, and ẞ/ß to be distinct letters.

I think that German stands alone in allowing an alternative (ö = oe, ä = ae), but I am interesting in hearing what experts in other languages say.


The German "Umlaut" is never spelled oe or ae in a German text. The solution is frequently used in computer files, because many operating systems and program languages have problems with these letters. You also have to use this solution in your email address if you have a name with these letters.

The sorting order is actually different in German and Swedish, because in Swedish they really separate letters at the end of the alphabet but in German they are sorted with the "main" letter (a or e).

The whole problem arouse because the asc/ansi code was developed in the US by people who obviously knew no other language than English.
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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:14 am

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1067
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Hornblower wrote:The whole problem arouse because the asc/ansi code was developed in the US by people who obviously knew no other language than English.

That was a feature, rather than a problem; because the idea was to develop a 7-bit alphabet set for the Teletype. It then became a problem when others tried to shoehorn their alphabet into 7-bits. It appears that the German language was able to accommodate itself with minimal effort. Now that we are not as limited in digital space the problems have been solved by Unicode.

My first job was with a Honeywell computer using a GE designed operating system that had a 6-bit character set (by eliminating lowercase letters) in a 36-bit word. They eventually changed to 9-bit characters by dividing the word into 4 characters instead of the previous 6.
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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by Keith_w   » Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:11 am

Keith_w
Commodore

Posts: 939
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:10 am
Location: Ontario, Canada

Hornblower wrote:
tlb wrote: quote="Kaptenen"That is not a accent mark, it is a letter, we have the letters Å,Ä and Ö and it sounds quite different. Why are you yanks so indifferent?

dvdscar wrote:Technically, the double-dot mark over the o (or any other vowel character) is called an umlaut. It marks a change in pronunciation over the standard pronunciation of the vowel. The pronunciation change may vary from language to language, but it's fairly common in German, and the way my voice teacher in college explained its effect in German was you shape your mouth as if you're going to pronounce the regular vowel, then you pronounce a long E sound. Trust me, it does sound different. Modern German spelling has mostly done away with it, replacing it with a trailing e. So ö now = oe, ä now = ae, etc. Not sure about how other languages would reflect it.

The MS keyboard shortcut is Ctrl+Shift+colon key then press the desired vowel.

1632 authors use it a lot. :-)

As the Wikipedia article said whether it is considered a separate letter or a letter plus a diacritic mark depends on the language. I see no reason to doubt that in Kaptenen's language it is considered a separate letter. Note that the Council for German Orthography considers Ä/ä, Ö/ö, Ü/ü, and ẞ/ß to be distinct letters.

I think that German stands alone in allowing an alternative (ö = oe, ä = ae), but I am interesting in hearing what experts in other languages say. /quote

The German "Umlaut" is never spelled oe or ae in a German text. The solution is frequently used in computer files, because many operating systems and program languages have problems with these letters. You also have to use this solution in your email address if you have a name with these letters.

The sorting order is actually different in German and Swedish, because in Swedish they really separate letters at the end of the alphabet but in German they are sorted with the "main" letter (a or e).

The whole problem arouse because the asc/ansi code was developed in the US by people who obviously knew no other language than English.



That's probable why it's called American Standard Code for Information Interchange instead of International Code.

On my Surface's on screen keyboard, if you hold a letter down it shows many? most? all? of the accented letters available. For example aáaäàâãæå.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:33 pm

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1067
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

Keith_w wrote:That's probable why it's called American Standard Code for Information Interchange instead of International Code.

On my Surface's on screen keyboard, if you hold a letter down it shows many? most? all? of the accented letters available. For example aáaäàâãæå.

Although what you say is true about ASCII, that is not the important point for the purposes of this thread.

As the teletypewriter machines replaced telegraph operators entering codes on a key device, new codes were developed to replace Morse code. In 1875 Baudot patented his apparatus in France which used 5-bit codes. In 1901 this was modified by Murray (changing some codes) with paper-tape readers and punches, but still retaining 5-bits. In 1925 the International Telegraph Alphabet No. 2 was introduced. All were 5-bit code systems that used a shift character to switch between alphabetic and numeric character sets.

The improvement introduced by ASCII was to expand the code to 7-bits, so a shift character was no longer needed and both upper and lower case were supported.

I expect the German language hack to eliminate the umlaut in telegraph messages preceded the development of ASCII. However none of the codes listed could support an international multi-language requirement which needs more than 8-bits to implement - hence Unicode.
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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:43 pm

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Posts: 642
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Location: Huntsville, AL

tlb wrote:
My first job was with a Honeywell computer using a GE designed operating system that had a 6-bit character set (by eliminating lowercase letters) in a 36-bit word. They eventually changed to 9-bit characters by dividing the word into 4 characters instead of the previous 6.



Just one more reason to hate GECOS. Besides 427M.
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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Sun Aug 25, 2019 5:01 pm

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1067
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

tlb wrote:My first job was with a Honeywell computer using a GE designed operating system that had a 6-bit character set (by eliminating lowercase letters) in a 36-bit word. They eventually changed to 9-bit characters by dividing the word into 4 characters instead of the previous 6.

Fox2! wrote:Just one more reason to hate GECOS. Besides 427M.

Actually it was a better machine for timesharing, because it was interrupt driven, rather than using the more common polling. In timesharing mode it did use the 9-bit characters, that could only be used in batch mode with the Extended Instruction Set.

Eventually I made it to Systems Programmer, before starting all over again in an IBM shop.
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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by fallsfromtrees   » Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:57 am

fallsfromtrees
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1856
Joined: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:51 am
Location: Mesa, Arizona

tlb wrote:
Hornblower wrote:The whole problem arouse because the asc/ansi code was developed in the US by people who obviously knew no other language than English.

That was a feature, rather than a problem; because the idea was to develop a 7-bit alphabet set for the Teletype. It then became a problem when others tried to shoehorn their alphabet into 7-bits. It appears that the German language was able to accommodate itself with minimal effort. Now that we are not as limited in digital space the problems have been solved by Unicode.

My first job was with a Honeywell computer using a GE designed operating system that had a 6-bit character set (by eliminating lowercase letters) in a 36-bit word. They eventually changed to 9-bit characters by dividing the word into 4 characters instead of the previous 6.

Actually the Honeywell 6000 hardware had modes for accessing both 6 bit and 9 bit characters - made for interesting programming problems.

Much more fun was the DEC 10, which had 36 bit words, and shoe horned 5 7 bit ACSII characters with one bit left over into a word - I made interpreting a mag tape from a DEC system a LOT of fun.
========================

The only problem with quotes on the internet is that you can't authenticate them -- Abraham Lincoln
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Re: KODT in Honorverse
Post by Kaptenen   » Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:29 am

Kaptenen
Midshipman

Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 6:12 am

tlb wrote:
Kaptenen wrote:That is not a accent mark, it is a letter, we have the letters Å,Ä and Ö and it sounds quite different. Why are you yanks so indifferent?

dvdscar wrote:Technically, the double-dot mark over the o (or any other vowel character) is called an umlaut. It marks a change in pronunciation over the standard pronunciation of the vowel. The pronunciation change may vary from language to language, but it's fairly common in German, and the way my voice teacher in college explained its effect in German was you shape your mouth as if you're going to pronounce the regular vowel, then you pronounce a long E sound. Trust me, it does sound different. Modern German spelling has mostly done away with it, replacing it with a trailing e. So ö now = oe, ä now = ae, etc. Not sure about how other languages would reflect it.

The MS keyboard shortcut is Ctrl+Shift+colon key then press the desired vowel.

1632 authors use it a lot. :-)

As the Wikipedia article said whether it is considered a separate letter or a letter plus a diacritic mark depends on the language. I see no reason to doubt that in Kaptenen's language it is considered a separate letter. Note that the Council for German Orthography considers Ä/ä, Ö/ö, Ü/ü, and ẞ/ß to be distinct letters.

I think that German stands alone in allowing an alternative (ö = oe, ä = ae), but I am interesting in hearing what experts in other languages say.

No it is not, they are letters which change the meaning
totally, for instance, dog=died, dög=sufficed, Another example: kal=barren or bald, kål=cabbage,köl=keel.
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