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Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry

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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by Kruhn   » Fri Aug 02, 2019 1:14 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:Easy.

Offer to sell export models of Manticoran or Grayson warships to SL members who suddenly realize that they need an SDF. The potential market is 1,000+ core systems who need 50 to 100 SD(P)s, LACs, System defense pods. That is 50,000 to 100,000 warships.

The more heavily industrialized systems that the GA trusts might also buy production licenses to build their own warships.

An anology would be the F-16 and F-35 fighter programs.



Or the dreadnought race in South America during the early 20th Century.
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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:35 pm

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The GA can either try to protect their tech advantage or the can foster alliances with a large number of nations that all conduct R&D.

The MA must centralize their production plans. Using ANY other method will increase the possibility of discovery. So, they cannot manage any sort of dispersed coalition. Even the Renaissance Factor MUST keep their membership somewhat ignorant or risk those members fleeing when the truth is discovered.

The GA then faces a choice of either trying to restrict technological development in an effort to secure their advantage or to foster technological competition in order to secure their advantage in innovation. Methinks that the best choice is to foster technological development. That strategy uses the GA's political/structural advantages best.

So the GA should sell export weapons systems in an effort to encourage their allies to conduct their own R&D.
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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by Sigs   » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:41 pm

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PeterZ wrote:The GA can either try to protect their tech advantage or the can foster alliances with a large number of nations that all conduct R&D.

The GA is not entirely sure how great their tech advantage is with regards to the MA so for the mean time they should do everything in their power to keep everyone not from Grayson, Manticore, Haven or Beowulf out of their R&D. More importantly they should keep a good handle on their technology until the people that want to join the GA prove themselves, sure protect them as best you can but giving them all of your secrets on the hope that they stay your allies is asking for trouble. If they make it widely available to the ex-league members who might want to join the GA then it will really quickly get in the hands of the League and even more quickly in the hands of the MA.

Also don't forget that the SLN has only 150,000,000 members drawn from over 1,700 member systems, that's 88,000 people/system assuming each system is equally represented in the SLN which is not likely as some systems would have a higher representation in the navy then others which means that even if the SLN was completely disbanded and everyone took their share some member systems might end up with a couple of thousand SLN members and others with hundreds of thousands. Most former League systems wont be able to build a fleet right now it will take many of them 15-20 years to build up the ability to support multiple SD(P)'s assuming they don't have a strong naval tradition or a strong space transportation sector.

The GA should definitely allow new members and assist those members with building a navy, naval tradition and a fleet of their own but that will take time to get the base manpower necessity and more importantly the trust. The GA doesn't want to be providing security to half of the League and all of the verge 20 or 30 years from now but they also don't want to squander their technological edge that they have worked decade's for in a matter of months or even a handful of years.




The MA must centralize their production plans. Using ANY other method will increase the possibility of discovery. So, they cannot manage any sort of dispersed coalition. Even the Renaissance Factor MUST keep their membership somewhat ignorant or risk those members fleeing when the truth is discovered.
Seeing as the GA doesn't know if the MA has 1 system or 100 systems, what their technological level is, what their industrial capabilities are I would assume that the GA will work hard not to base their decisions on the assumption that the MA who started this war wont have the means to take advantage of a technological windfall should they get it.

The GA then faces a choice of either trying to restrict technological development in an effort to secure their advantage or to foster technological competition in order to secure their advantage in innovation. Methinks that the best choice is to foster technological development. That strategy uses the GA's political/structural advantages best.
How do you foster competition if you give your secrets to everyone including your enemies?



So the GA should sell export weapons systems in an effort to encourage their allies to conduct their own R&D.
They should balance it so that they can sell export systems that dont compromise their technological edge too soon because they dont know how the situation with the League will play out, the member systesm could turn the League into a big defensive alliance or they could return the league to its former self, would it be a good idea to take a technological lead that might last 10 years or more and give it to the League in a few months to a year only for them to come back for round two while also dealing with the MA?
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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by saber964   » Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:03 pm

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Manticore has one natural resource that trumps everything you guys are proposing. Namely the MWJ. The keep the transit fees high not at war time levels but a bit lower like at 75% of war time. If they maintain this they will have plenty of cash to do the rebuilding. Plus most planetary governments are not going to buy super dreadnaughts especially former SLN ones because of the manpower costs. 90%of the local governments will buy a couple of LAC wings support ships and a few hyper capable ships like older RMN DD's and CL's e.g. The GSN pre treaty is a fairly good mix. 3-4 CL 4-6 DD and 6-10 LAC squadrons will handle 95% of the pirates. A LAC wing or two will handle 90% of pirates. Remember a SLN SD use 6500 personnel, you can man 650 LAC's for one SD.
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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by Theemile   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 7:39 am

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saber964 wrote:Manticore has one natural resource that trumps everything you guys are proposing. Namely the MWJ. The keep the transit fees high not at war time levels but a bit lower like at 75% of war time. If they maintain this they will have plenty of cash to do the rebuilding. Plus most planetary governments are not going to buy super dreadnaughts especially former SLN ones because of the manpower costs. 90%of the local governments will buy a couple of LAC wings support ships and a few hyper capable ships like older RMN DD's and CL's e.g. The GSN pre treaty is a fairly good mix. 3-4 CL 4-6 DD and 6-10 LAC squadrons will handle 95% of the pirates. A LAC wing or two will handle 90% of pirates. Remember a SLN SD use 6500 personnel, you can man 650 LAC's for one SD.


Actually a single LAC wing will probably handle 98-99% of traditional Pirates. It has enough presence units to cover most interesting locations in a system simultaneously, and support crew and maintenance rotations. A single modern LAC can rip a hole in a classic DD/CL, and a squadron can easily handle most of such ships.

The average Pirate is a old FG/DD/CL or 2 and runs on margins - they are not directly supported by governments and can not get free repairs or replenishment. Tangling with a warship, any warship, even if they "win", is a loss for them, as their own ship will need to be repaired out of their pockets. And that one missile that was fired - it just cost every member of the pirate crew $3000.

Now, protecting against Commerce Raiders/Foreign Navies, those require the force you are suggesting, they are usually more modern, larger, and better equipped; more importantly, they are willing to take damage to achieve their mission. A wing of 1920 Havenite LACs should be sufficient to destroy a division of 1900 era Battlecruisers handily (whereas a squadron of Shrikes should be able to take a BC on their own.) A thousand or 2 pods will stand off a BC squadron or 2 and give pause to a capital squadron or 2.

A handful of DD/CLs would allow a state to easily patrol beyond it's hyperlimit, a couple more will allow the support of a merchant marine and regional policing duties.

If I had to build an Export navy package (or set of them), it would surround a set of designs with common parts/ammo, for ease of maintenance/replenishment - in other words, specific new builds for the export market. It wouldn't have advanced comps, edms, ftl comms, or beta^2 nodes, so would probably be built around Haven's brute force responses to Manticore's high tech advances.

The optimal small navy would probably be as you said, a couple LAC wings, 6 or so DDs, and 1-3 CLs, with a shoal of (Cataphract) missile pods. It would be a tight little, easy to maintain navy, focusing on ease of defense, with slight offensive reach, but little ability for protracted excursions.
Last edited by Theemile on Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:20 am

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Sigs,

A couple of things.

First, Oyster Bay pretty much indicates that the resources the MA controls is limited. Had they had several large systems to draw from, that attack would have been much more powerful and likely included Haven as well. Not that Haven would have been as wounded with Bolthole surviving.

Second, the size of their holding does not eliminate their need for secrecy. The more the MA communicate with their controlled systems, the more likely they will be discovered. This will be true if they control only 1 or 100 systems.

These facts indicate that the GA is best served if they can ramp up the productive and technical capacity of their allies. The greater the productive capacity of their allies, the more difficult the MA's job to re-unify the galaxy. Even the RF can't operate openly. The supporters within those systems are largely ignorant of their MA connections and the RF leadership has to keep it that way.

So, if enough of the ex-Protectorates and Verge/Fringe do ally with the GA, and their tech/production capacity is significantly improved; the MA is in deep caca. The SL 2.0 will consolidate and also improve their tech. They are likely paranoid about any "Others" influencing their politics, so won't be so easily influenced. The SL 2.0 may not be allies to the GA, but they won't automatically be enemies either. Especially, until they find out just who the "Others" are.
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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by Sigs   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:42 pm

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saber964 wrote:Manticore has one natural resource that trumps everything you guys are proposing. Namely the MWJ. The keep the transit fees high not at war time levels but a bit lower like at 75% of war time. If they maintain this they will have plenty of cash to do the rebuilding.


That may be a lot of money but in absolute terms it's not that much, not enough to fund rebuilding of Manticore, building up of it's empire, rebuilding Grayson and Beowulf while trying to build up the verge as a counter balance for potential resurgence of League power.

The MWJ in conjunction with Bolthole and other Havenite industrial systems as well as Manticoran wealth within the League should allow them to rebuild rather more quickly.





Plus most planetary governments are not going to buy super dreadnaughts especially former SLN ones because of the manpower costs.
They don't have to buy any of the former SLN ships, the SLN might give them money to take them off of their hands but ultimately the only use those ships would provide would be training vessels to build their navy until they can get their hands on survivable ships. And more importantly the core and shell governments will be lining up to buy whatever the GA is willing to sell in order to ensure their own security.


90%of the local governments will buy a couple of LAC wings support ships and a few hyper capable ships like older RMN DD's and CL's e.g. The GSN pre treaty is a fairly good mix. 3-4 CL 4-6 DD and 6-10 LAC squadrons will handle 95% of the pirates. A LAC wing or two will handle 90% of pirates. Remember a SLN SD use 6500 personnel, you can man 650 LAC's for one SD.

Pre-treaty Grayson was a backwater system, core worlds will have a hell of alot more appeal to pirates and empire builders. Add to the mix that now potentially there are hundreds of new nations, old rivalries plus what the SLN did to the neutrals and tried to do to its own systems they will arm themselvs as best as they can.
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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by Sigs   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:59 pm

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Theemile wrote:
Actually a single LAC wing will probably handle 98-99% of traditional Pirates. It has enough presence units to cover most interesting locations in a system simultaneously, and support crew and maintenance rotations. A single modern LAC can rip a hole in a classic DD/CL, and a squadron can easily handle most of such ships.

Core worlds and Shell worlds have a lot more industrial power than Grayson in 1900. Grayson had to worry about one other nation with equally crappy technology and equally weak economy. Dozens or hundreds of core/shell systems will present quite the juicy target if they only have a handful of LAC's and CA and bellow. Besides the first independent system to build a significant military it will force their neighbours to do so as well and so on in series because no one will want to be protected by a bunch of light combatants and LAC's when they neighbour is working on their 5th or 6th squadron of SD(P)'s.
These are wealthy systems that wont want to feel exposed if they can help it.


Now, protecting against Commerce Raiders/Foreign Navies, those require the force you are suggesting, they are usually more modern, larger, and better equipped; more importantly, they are willing to take damage to achieve their mission. A wing of 1920 Havenite LACs should be sufficient to destroy a division of 1900 era Battlecruisers handily (whereas a squadron of Shrikes should be able to take a BC on their own.) A thousand or 2 pods will stand off a BC squadron or 2 and give pause to a capital squadron or 2.

That's now in 1923, imagine what it will be like in 1930 or 1935 when you have everyone tripping over themselves to attempt to gain parity the technological edge will close quickly.



A handful of DD/CLs would allow a state to easily patrol beyond it's hyperlimit, a couple more will allow the support of a merchant marine and regional policing duties.
What happens when their neighbour build a squadron of SD(P)'s? What if that neighbour has a score to settle that the SLN was keeping a lid on but no more? We are talking about core and shell worlds which ware used to being protected and secure, we are not talking about verge systems that don't have two pennies to rub together and have to worry about some nickel and dime pirates.



The optimal small navy would probably be as you said, a couple LAC wings, 6 or so DDs, and 1-3 CLs, with a shoal of (Cataphract) missile pods. It would be a tight little, easy to maintain navy, focusing on ease of defense, with slight offensive reach, but little ability for protracted excursions.
So the core worlds that until 1921 were protected by the mighty SLN and its 10,000 SD's would be willing to reduce their defence to only 10 hyper capable ships and a few dozen LAC's?

These are core and shell systems that just saw the SLN try to wipe two member systems industry and a dozen neutrals out of spite, I doubt that they will settle for the smallest navy possible, they might start with a few LAC's and DD's if starting from near scratch but from that point on they will most likely be working feverishly to build up their navy to a sufficient strength.
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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by kzt   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:43 pm

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If they decide to build a navy every core world could deploy a hundred Sd(p) and a heavy fixed defenses without a struggle. Duplicating the entire RMN is possible for all of them, but for some it would be painful. For others, with a huge population and GSP, not so much.
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Re: Financing the rebuilding of the SKM and Grayson industry
Post by Sigs   » Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:49 pm

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PeterZ wrote:Sigs,

A couple of things.

First, Oyster Bay pretty much indicates that the resources the MA controls is limited. Had they had several large systems to draw from, that attack would have been much more powerful and likely included Haven as well. Not that Haven would have been as wounded with Bolthole surviving.

I disagree, looking from Manticore's point of view OB accomplished everything they needed o accomplish, they destroyed the SKM's industrial muscle while they left it's Navy intact to fight a war with the SLN and the RHN when the time came, if the MA had tried a more powerful approach and took out the RMN or as much of it as possible the SLN would have made short work of the remnants no matter how outclassed and worse they might have actually broken the SKM's spirit and will to fight by crushing the RMN in a surprise attack, the SEM surrenders to the League and the SLN suddenly gets state of the art technology.

The MA did not need the RMN destroyer, they needed to destroy the SKM's industry while leaving the RMN's fighting power to crush the SLN and in turn to let the RHN swoop in for the kill. Going after the Republic would have accomplished nothing more than to get both nations on the same side.

Besides the ships that attacked Manticore and Grayson could have been special purpose ships with just sneak attacks in mind, for all they know the regular MA navy has hundreds of SD(P)'s of their own ready for the attack.

Second, the size of their holding does not eliminate their need for secrecy. The more the MA communicate with their controlled systems, the more likely they will be discovered. This will be true if they control only 1 or 100 systems.
If I were in charge of the MA in 1500-1600 I would be sending colony ships quietly as far from the League as I can and still be able to maintain reasonable contact and colonize a few planets with the intent to expand from there with the goal to have significant industrial might by the time I'm ready to enact my plans in the League. The MA had the ability to genetically engineer its population and grow their population significantly faster than anyone else, in 300 years they would have had hundreds of heavily industrialized systems far from the League, with once a year courier from the League to my nation I will be able to keep pace with League technology and improve my technology in peace. By the time I'm ready I would have hundred or more heavily industrialized systems with a powerful well trained navy with the ability to choose when to attack and safely know that no one is aware my nation even exists.

Since no one knows the MA exists I would try to manipulate the different nations into fighting between themselves and I will use my Special Forces(spider-drive units) to fan the flames and weaken whoever is stronger.


MY point is that for all the GA knows there are hundreds of systems far from the League with hundreds of SD(P)'s waiting to pounce. The MA did not need to start a war if they could ensure a cheap victory by using the SLN and the mandarins like puppets to basically get destroyed by the RMN and then use the RHN to crush the remnants and powerless RMN. Why risk uniting the galaxy against you if you can try for a victory the cheap way first? With a little bit of luck and a bit more forethought they could have pulled it off without anyone suspecting anything and without risking uniting the galaxy against them.

These facts indicate that the GA is best served if they can ramp up the productive and technical capacity of their allies. The greater the productive capacity of their allies, the more difficult the MA's job to re-unify the galaxy. Even the RF can't operate openly. The supporters within those systems are largely ignorant of their MA connections and the RF leadership has to keep it that way.
Problem is that the GA doesn't know about the RF and it doesn't know about the MA aside from some tidbits. If I knew that someone had it out for me but I knew next to nothing about them I would be very interested in maintaining as powerful a fleet as I can. The problem is worse because since the GA doesn't know what the MA is planning they cant be sure they aren't actually helping them accomplish their goals. For all they know the entire plan was meant to topple the League government and install a friendly government and eliminate any opposition to genetic enhancement(Beowulf) from the League and the GA complied by forcing the League to surrender. Just as easily they could have been making the effort to smash the League into hundreds of smaller nations to make conquest easier in a decade or two.

My point is that without intelligence on the MA the GA is basically guessing if they are making things better or worse, if they are fighting the MA or helping them unwillingly and they definitely don't know if the units that were used in OB were all that the MA had or they were just all the MA was willing to cut loose.


So, if enough of the ex-Protectorates and Verge/Fringe do ally with the GA, and their tech/production capacity is significantly improved; the MA is in deep caca.
The issue with this is as far as the GA knows the MA does not care about the verge/protectorates. My opinion is that the only chance the GA has of long term survival is uniting as much of the verge/protectorates as they can and investing in their industry and technology, adding to the verge also as many shell/core worlds as they can add to the GA.
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