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How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?

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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Galactic Sapper   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:12 pm

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I find it to be karmic justice that, as a result of the League's violations (and attempted-but-failed violations) of the Eridani Edict, the Grand Alliance enforced the Edict against the very polity which had promulgated it in the first place - and did it in the manner in which the Edict was intended to be enforced, rather than the way the League would have used the excuse to take over the offending planet. Regime change without conquest.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by kzt   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:42 pm

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Sigs wrote:[]
I don't know, its one thing to say they stabbed you in the back in Manticore when they smashed 11th Fleet, its another thing to say so when they were in Sol demanding the Leagues surrender. The League had home court advantage in the last battle and they still surrendered, without firing a shot may I mention. The SLN outnumbered the Grand Fleet by 3 to 2 in the Battle of Sol yet they surrendered without firing a shot.

Exactly.

Stabbed in the back.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:10 pm

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kzt wrote:Exactly.

Stabbed in the back.

Can you elaborate a little more?
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by kzt   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 5:48 pm

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Sigs wrote:
kzt wrote:Exactly.

Stabbed in the back.

Can you elaborate a little more?

They surrendered without firing a shot. The most powerful fleet in the galaxy surrendered to a bunch of neo-barbs without firing a shot.

What’s the most reasonable explanation: they were betrayed by a group of traitors or that those tiny cluster of neo-barbs managed to build a fleet whose technology so totally overpowers that the the SL that the SLN was unable to fight, and nobody noticed anything until they showed up?

Which is the simplest explanation, the one that requires the fewest assumptions?
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:54 pm

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kzt wrote:
Sigs wrote:[]
I don't know, its one thing to say they stabbed you in the back in Manticore when they smashed 11th Fleet, its another thing to say so when they were in Sol demanding the Leagues surrender. The League had home court advantage in the last battle and they still surrendered, without firing a shot may I mention. The SLN outnumbered the Grand Fleet by 3 to 2 in the Battle of Sol yet they surrendered without firing a shot.

Exactly.

Stabbed in the back.


The Grand Fleet had just put enough MDMs through the heart of NSG and the mobile fleet units' defenses to obliterate every SD in the Reserve cluster closest to NSG. Combined with the history of SLN vs GA encounters to date, it was reasonable for the NGS commander to surrender his station and associated vessels. Same goes for the surrender of the entire Sol System.

Did Kingstord have the authority to make the essentially political decision to surrender the entire system to the Ga, not just the SLN assets in-system? Especially since Honor's terms called for complete regime replacement for the whole Solarian League?
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:24 pm

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kzt wrote:
They surrendered without firing a shot. The most powerful fleet in the galaxy surrendered to a bunch of neo-barbs without firing a shot.
That's the part where you and I differ, they surrendered without firing a shot because they fought in New Tuscany, Spindle, Manticore, Hypatia and Beowulf amongst dozens of smaller engagements and in only two engagements(all I remember) they inflicted significant casualties to the forces present, in New Tuscany where they destroyed 100% of the forces they knew about simply by attacking unprepared ships and in Hypatia where they destroyed almost 100% of the ships against them only leaving a destroyer(they didn't know it was a destroyer). In the first instance it was not an actual victory because those ships were just sitting there minding their own business not doing anything, in the second instance the only reason they came on top was because they outnumbered the RMN by such a margin that they simply overwhelmed the RMN's defences. In Hypatia though it was not even a victory because the SLN taskforce was gutted at the end and retreated under threat but they mostly retreated because the senior remaining officer didn't want to commit a war crime. In every other incident the RMN/GA slaughtered the SLN ships with unbelievable ease, so much so that the Navy knew not to deploy SD's because they were death traps. The Navy knew they were going to lose every ship anyway while not inflicting any casualties on the enemy so they surrendered. There is only a certain number of times you can say your navy was backstabbed in battle before you have to look at your navy and try to determine if maybe they were the problem.

The SLN was backstabbed in New Tuscany, Spindle, Manticore, Beowulf, Sol and dozens of other battles... I think the general public might ask some rather pointed questions as to why the SLN is so stupid that it gets backstabbed in EVERY Battle and How the RMN manages to Backstab the SLN in EVERY Battle...






What’s the most reasonable explanation: they were betrayed by a group of traitors or that those tiny cluster of neo-barbs managed to build a fleet whose technology so totally overpowers that the the SL that the SLN was unable to fight, and nobody noticed anything until they showed up?

So The SLN is betrayed in every battle? Maybe they deserved to die if they are so stupid that they keep letting the GA "backstab" them.


Which is the simplest explanation, the one that requires the fewest assumptions?

The one with the fewest assumptions is that the SLN fell behind technologically and ignored two nations that fought a 20 year war during which there were advances that the SLN didnt partake in. They can look through history to determine that wars generally produce technological advancement in weapons, its a lot less assumptions then assuming that the SLN was betrayed in Dozens of systems including the home system.



You are mistaking the League Government and the League media with the government and Media of the hundreds of core and shell systems. Many of them could verywell be as open and transparent as the government and media of the SKM but they focuse on their domestic issues rather than dealing with a corrupt federal government that doesent really impact their day to day lives.


The Mandarins controled the news because most of the information flowed through Earth and the core/shell worlds had no interest to find the real truth, they massage the news from the handfull of majore organiations that gather the "news" and then those organizations sell the news to the media of the member systems. The Member systems know that the stories they buy are basicly BS but its all fluff because it doesent affect the citizens of their system and its more of a FYI that they can discuss over a meal and then forget about it. Probably 95% of the population of the LEague has not left their home system ever, so they dont care what is happening between Manticore and Haven except to feel sorry for the poor barbarians fighting wars that the League outgrew centuries ago because once again it is happening outside of the League's territory and why should they worry when they have a mighty fleet of 10,000 SD's defending them. Once the truth of the defeat sets in, most worlds will end up sending media from home to gather the news rather than rely on purchasing the BS news from the major Earth news corporations because now the mighty SLN is not there to insulate and protect those systems and they will have to learn about the rest of the Galaxy in order to survive.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Relax   » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:52 am

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Sigs wrote:
kzt wrote:How long will it take for the ‘stab in the back’ theory to gain traction? Weeks or months?

99.5% of the SL core has no evidence of all that crazy stuff people are taking about. And no, they don’t want to pay for it either.

I don't know, its one thing to say they stabbed you in the back in Manticore when they smashed 11th Fleet, its another thing to say so when they were in Sol demanding the Leagues surrender. The League had home court advantage in the last battle and they still surrendered, without firing a shot may I mention. The SLN outnumbered the Grand Fleet by 3 to 2 in the Battle of Sol yet they surrendered without firing a shot. Suddenly trillions of people are in shock that the League lost the war so completely, the war that their own government started. The new convention kicking off to decide the future of the League will have a lot of people asking a lot of questions like why did the League decide to attack it's own citizens, destroy the industrial power of numerous systems that had no interest in the war to begin with. Then they will ask why the SLN went from being top dog in 1921 to having 70+ SD's crushed by cruisers in 1922 to losing the largest space battle in history in such a completely ne sided slaughter in 1922 to having a smaller fleet demand the League's surrender in 1923... a smaller fleet demanding the Leagues surrender in the League Capital.


This is EXACTLY what happened in Germany post WWI. The "stab in back". Led directly to WWII. Facts? Who cares about those? The so called "journalists"(none exist and never have) were drowned out by those angry at the Versaille treaty when they beat the Russians, Romanians, Serbians, and brought the Western front to a complete stand still. Didn't matter they were out of manpower, their army and navy were mutinous, population was starving, dying to the Spanish Influenza, and about to crumble if the US or UK commonwealth sent more men.
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:40 pm

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Relax wrote:
This is EXACTLY what happened in Germany post WWI. The "stab in back". Led directly to WWII. Facts? Who cares about those? The so called "journalists"(none exist and never have) were drowned out by those angry at the Versaille treaty when they beat the Russians, Romanians, Serbians, and brought the Western front to a complete stand still. Didn't matter they were out of manpower, their army and navy were mutinous, population was starving, dying to the Spanish Influenza, and about to crumble if the US or UK commonwealth sent more men.



Difference is that the SLN's defeat was quite obvious and difficult to explain. It's a lot easier to explain away that someone stabbed you in the back when you have many victories and defeats in the war...its a whole different story when your military has been beaten in battle after battle after battle when in almost if not all those battles they were at numerical parity(Second Manticore), Slight advantage(Battle of Sol, Second Tuscany, Zunker Incident) or the SLN had overwhelming numbers(Battle of Spindle, Battle of Hypatia, Battle of Beowulf, Battle of Saltash, Battle of Prime Turminus amongst others). In only two shooting incidents the SLN came out on top, destroying 3 destroyers in New Tuscany and destroying most of the task force in Hypatia and in the second they lost most of their BC's and were forced to retreat after failing to complete the mission so it was not really even close to a victory but it is as close as they got to a legitimate victory.


The League now has a host of new problems because of the war, their inglorious defeat and their actions during the course of the war.

1)Every member will be wondering if they are better off alone or with a few close neighbours.

2)Every member system will be considering how to restructure the government so as to allow it to be efficient without giving it the power it had before the war.

3)Most definitely every member system will be considering how to proceed with the SLN.


The League might verywell end up with a significantly smaller SLN than before with the balance of ships being in the hands of individual SDF's to be federalized during times of war because the events that transpired in Beowulf and Hypatia will be at the forefront of every systems thinking for a long long long time to come. The systems that remain in the league might look at the SLN with suspicions and find ways to protect themselvs against their own government and military rather than plot revenge against the GA.

The SLN was ready to commit warcrimes against it's own citizens and it took the RMN standing between the SLN and the League's citizens to prevent those war crimes in at least 2 instances.


They can BS all they want and cry about someone backstabbing them but if they lost every battle no matter how badly they outnumbered the enemy then maybe they will see how outclassed the SLN really was.

And to a degree they were backstabbed, just not by the GA.
-They were backstabbed by decades or centuries of a navy that grew complacent and bought into the belief that they were invincible.
-They were backstabbed by a corrupt clique that led them from disaster into disaster because they were to convinced that eventually if they threw enough lives and ships against the GA they will win against all logic.
-They were backstabbed by a third party that infiltrated all levels of the military and the government and instigated this conflict.
-And most of all the League was stabbed in the back by it's own citizens because of their apathy towards the federal government, their wilful ignorance of the level of corruption and worst of all their oversized sense of superiority that they didn't push their nation to do better and to continue to improve rather they just swept controversy after controversy under the rug and ignored every nation outside of their own system including the League.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Mon Jul 15, 2019 10:06 pm

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Sigs wrote:
Relax wrote:
This is EXACTLY what happened in Germany post WWI. The "stab in back". Led directly to WWII. Facts? Who cares about those? The so called "journalists"(none exist and never have) were drowned out by those angry at the Versaille treaty when they beat the Russians, Romanians, Serbians, and brought the Western front to a complete stand still. Didn't matter they were out of manpower, their army and navy were mutinous, population was starving, dying to the Spanish Influenza, and about to crumble if the US or UK commonwealth sent more men.



Difference is that the SLN's defeat was quite obvious and difficult to explain. It's a lot easier to explain away that someone stabbed you in the back when you have many victories and defeats in the war...its a whole different story when your military has been beaten in battle after battle after battle when in almost if not all those battles they were at numerical parity(Second Manticore), Slight advantage(Battle of Sol, Second Tuscany, Zunker Incident) or the SLN had overwhelming numbers(Battle of Spindle, Battle of Hypatia, Battle of Beowulf, Battle of Saltash, Battle of Prime Turminus amongst others). In only two shooting incidents the SLN came out on top, destroying 3 destroyers in New Tuscany and destroying most of the task force in Hypatia and in the second they lost most of their BC's and were forced to retreat after failing to complete the mission so it was not really even close to a victory but it is as close as they got to a legitimate victory.


The League now has a host of new problems because of the war, their inglorious defeat and their actions during the course of the war.

1)Every member will be wondering if they are better off alone or with a few close neighbours.

2)Every member system will be considering how to restructure the government so as to allow it to be efficient without giving it the power it had before the war.

3)Most definitely every member system will be considering how to proceed with the SLN.


The League might verywell end up with a significantly smaller SLN than before with the balance of ships being in the hands of individual SDF's to be federalized during times of war because the events that transpired in Beowulf and Hypatia will be at the forefront of every systems thinking for a long long long time to come. The systems that remain in the league might look at the SLN with suspicions and find ways to protect themselvs against their own government and military rather than plot revenge against the GA.

The SLN was ready to commit warcrimes against it's own citizens and it took the RMN standing between the SLN and the League's citizens to prevent those war crimes in at least 2 instances.


They can BS all they want and cry about someone backstabbing them but if they lost every battle no matter how badly they outnumbered the enemy then maybe they will see how outclassed the SLN really was.

And to a degree they were backstabbed, just not by the GA.
-They were backstabbed by decades or centuries of a navy that grew complacent and bought into the belief that they were invincible.
-They were backstabbed by a corrupt clique that led them from disaster into disaster because they were to convinced that eventually if they threw enough lives and ships against the GA they will win against all logic.
-They were backstabbed by a third party that infiltrated all levels of the military and the government and instigated this conflict.
-And most of all the League was stabbed in the back by it's own citizens because of their apathy towards the federal government, their wilful ignorance of the level of corruption and worst of all their oversized sense of superiority that they didn't push their nation to do better and to continue to improve rather they just swept controversy after controversy under the rug and ignored every nation outside of their own system including the League.



My expectation is that the SL and SLN will morph into an analog of NATO. The SLN will be disbanded or severely downsized and become reliant on reserves drawn from the SDFs of individual member system. They will have joint weapons and warship development and production ventures similar to the F-35 program, but each member system or cluster of systems will have their own forces under their command. As an intended result, the SL bureaucracy will no longer be capable of waging any major battles. At best they will be able to conduct antipiracy patrols and maybe beat up on a Verge system. However; the SL systems will not allow the later.
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Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:00 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:

My expectation is that the SL and SLN will morph into an analog of NATO. The SLN will be disbanded or severely downsized and become reliant on reserves drawn from the SDFs of individual member system. They will have joint weapons and warship development and production ventures similar to the F-35 program, but each member system or cluster of systems will have their own forces under their command. As an intended result, the SL bureaucracy will no longer be capable of waging any major battles. At best they will be able to conduct antipiracy patrols and maybe beat up on a Verge system. However; the SL systems will not allow the later.


I feel the same way, the individual systems will have their own militaries that can be seconded to the SLN in times of emergency but it will never again be the SLN having the means to attack one of their own without repercussions because the systems are defenceless.

I have a feeling that the League member systems will be heavily fortified and militarized in the near future but not so much against the GA as against their own government. The SLN might have 500 SD(P)'s 15-20 years down the road but each member system might have 50-100 SD(P)'s of their own to "reinforce" the SLN in times of war but to also protect itself from the SLN. The League might end up with 15,000-20,000 SD(P)'s in it's arsenal but that would be simply because they have so many industrialized core/shell worlds that want to ensure their own security but few if any will be willing to lend their warships for future League misadventures.


This would make the SLN nothing but a core for a major battle fleet if it comes to war but not big enough by itself to start interfering with the verge anymore. They can do business with the verge, they can sell weapons to the verge but I doubt they will go on adventures in the verge because no one will want to give the SLN the means to do that because it will endanger their own safety.

I think the SLN's willingness to follow order blindly and their bloodthirsty behaviour against their own citizens will do more for the long term security of the GA than anything the GA does or does not do.
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