Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 16 guests

How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sun Jul 28, 2019 10:24 pm

TFLYTSNBN
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:58 am

Jonathan_S wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:
A proposed amendment to the Solarian Legue Constitution:


A well regulated System Defense Force being neccessary for a free solar system, the right of the member systems to have well regulated System Defense Forces shall not be infringed.

How is that a change?

Even under the old constitution systems had to right to build SDFs and nobody infringed on that right (well not until the SLN started attacking it's own -- arguable attacking a system and its SDF could be seen as infringing).
Sure most system didn't bother to build significant SDFs because they thought they had better things to do with their funds. But their inalienable right still existed.


My post was mostly humorous and it did ignore the fact that a very few SL systems did exercise their already existing right to have significant SDFs. These systems were viewed with a certain amount of suspicion and disaproval by the SLN and their neighbors. I could make an anology that would put this post into political peril. Suffice it to say that in the aftermath of the SLN atrocities and subsequent sacking of Sol system, maintaining a robust SDF will no longer be viewed with disdain.
Top
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by tlb   » Mon Jul 29, 2019 7:29 am

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1130
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

Sigs wrote:The SLN would be formed around a fleet train to support offensive operations along with light combatants (BC(P)/BC(L), CA's CL's and DD's along with some CLACs)
Their combat duties would include anti piracy and protecting merchant marine etc...

Every ember system would be obligated to create an SDF with a standard say .25-.5% of the system GDP minimum, and designate that only a portion of the SDF could be called into federal service at anyone time. If a system has a GDP that can support 100 SD(P)'s with appropriate light combatants at .5% GDP the SLN would be entitled to 25% of those ships in the event of an emergency. If a system wants to spend 2% of its GDP to build a fleet of 400 SD(P)'s they are welcomed to and only 25 of those would be expected in federal service at any one time, if on the otherhand the SDF decides to spend .5% of their GDP on a navy and build only 25 SD(P)'s and the rest is in fixed forts and missile pods,LACs and destroyers/cruisers then so be it they will still be expected to deploy the 25 SD(P)'s even if they are left with nothing at home and I would assume their neighbours would be very unhappy if they were to notice that the system government is doing the very bare minimum because that would mean they would expect their neighbours to help protect them or that the SLN will not take their ships because they don't have a defense force without them.

So for a League with 1,000 members with an average of 60 SD(P)'s per member we can potentially see the SLN having acess to 15,000 SD(P)'s in time of war. The SLN will be responsible for offensive operations while the SDF's would be responsible to potect their home systems and rotate the SD(P)'s from the front if they have the ships

A system that invests in a proper SDF can in times of war have a fleet of SD(P)'s to protect it's self acked up by fixed defences without waiting for the SLN to rescue them and without fear that their entire fleet would be stripped from home defence unless they build the bare minimum that the SLN expects and then they have noone to blame but themselvs.

Divide the League into sectors and each sector has an SLN fleet base associated with it, at any point in time 10% of the available SD(P)'s from that sector would be in service with the SLN to conduct exercises and work up training as well as drilling the fleet train. Those ships would answer to the SLN for the training but ultimately in peacetime they would fall under their home government.

I do not know about the economics, but what you described sounds like a good basis for discussion for the restructured League. I wonder about the need to have both a sufficient number of representatives in the Assembly approve and then also sufficient number of member worlds approve (by referendum or by government vote?); but if that is how the reformed constitution is written, then I hope they can make it work.

Since most member worlds do not have even one SD and it will take time to construct them to a design plan that has not been created; there will have to be a rather long transition time for each world to get its SDF up to the required minimum force level. It will take even longer if shipyards need certification to build the approved plan.

On a different point, the Assembly needs to eliminate the requirement for unanimous consent to pass a law or resolution. The Liberum Veto did not work well for Poland, not even early on when it was the same as unanimous consent.
Top
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by George J. Smith   » Tue Jul 30, 2019 3:48 am

George J. Smith
Commodore

Posts: 803
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:48 am
Location: Ross-on-Wye UK

tlb wrote: snip...
Since most member worlds do not have even one SD and it will take time to construct them to a design plan that has not been created; there will have to be a rather long transition time for each world to get its SDF up to the required minimum force level. It will take even longer if shipyards need certification to build the approved plan.
snip...


There are still thousands of SLN ships in service and in the reserve, parcelling them out to the various SL member systems would create a core of ships for their SDFs. Yes they are obsolete compared to the GA ships, but they are sufficient for system defence when the only people who may attack them would be other SL system members that have the same tech. Where those systems would get the warm bodies to crew the ships is another matter, ships currently in service may well be crewed but not necessarily by residents of all the systems members, ships in reserve have either ghost crews or none at all.

The GA is not interested in taking action against any of the SL member systems as long as those systems limit themselves purely to defence of their systems and shipping, therefore as far as system defence is concerned it doesn't matter that GA tech is much more advanced.
.
T&R
GJS

A man should live forever, or die in the attempt
Spider Robinson Callahan's Crosstime Saloon (1977) A voice is heard in Ramah
Top
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by tlb   » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:38 am

tlb
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1130
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

George J. Smith wrote:There are still thousands of SLN ships in service and in the reserve, parcelling them out to the various SL member systems would create a core of ships for their SDFs. Yes they are obsolete compared to the GA ships, but they are sufficient for system defence when the only people who may attack them would be other SL system members that have the same tech. Where those systems would get the warm bodies to crew the ships is another matter, ships currently in service may well be crewed but not necessarily by residents of all the systems members, ships in reserve have either ghost crews or none at all.

The GA is not interested in taking action against any of the SL member systems as long as those systems limit themselves purely to defence of their systems and shipping, therefore as far as system defence is concerned it doesn't matter that GA tech is much more advanced.

Is it likely that existing SLN ships will meet the requirements for the new League? If not, then you still have the need for a long transition time for the members worlds to get their SDF up to the new standard.

Are you saying that advanced GA tech can be used in system defense since the GA is unlikely to attack or that since the system defense will not need to withstand a GA attack it does not need advanced GA tech (this is how I choose to read it)? I would say that the GA does not let any of its advanced tech out for whatever reason. Also, if it were to sell export weaponry (which I advise strongly against); it would be unlikely to sell anything that it would find difficult to arrack.
Top
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Eyal   » Tue Jul 30, 2019 7:59 am

Eyal
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:09 pm
Location: Israel

Sigs wrote:The problem is that the SLN has no experience with a central government that is also a democracy so they don't know if it will actually work. Then there is the problem that the majority of remaining members would be out the loop because of travel times to and from the capital. What I would consider is that the League may become business as usual in 10-30 years, because the GA is demanding a change in government and a genuine democracy but the formation and running of that democracy would be in the hands of the very people who would benefit from the return of the bureaucracy. Cant really expect the people that got you in the current mess to not take advantage and steer the government and the nation back to the original problem.


The biggest problem is that the people who got the SL into its current state are ultimately the ones tasked with approving any new constitution - namely, the member systems. The root of the SLs problems were issues inherent in its original constitution, such as the one-system veto and sharply limiting the central government's ability to raise revenue, and those pretty much inevitably led to the SL's current state. Presumably, this was done because the framers and ratifiers of the constitution didn't want to give up any more autonomy than they had to; it's an open question whether they'll wise up this time round.

George J. Smith wrote:The GA is not interested in taking action against any of the SL member systems as long as those systems limit themselves purely to defence of their systems and shipping, therefore as far as system defence is concerned it doesn't matter that GA tech is much more advanced.


I don't think the systems involved would rest easy making that assumption.
Top
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by kzt   » Tue Jul 30, 2019 9:07 am

kzt
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 10023
Joined: Sun Jan 10, 2010 7:18 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM

Eyal wrote:
George J. Smith wrote:The GA is not interested in taking action against any of the SL member systems as long as those systems limit themselves purely to defence of their systems and shipping, therefore as far as system defence is concerned it doesn't matter that GA tech is much more advanced.


I don't think the systems involved would rest easy making that assumption.

Everybody sleeps soundly knowing that the only thing that kept the street gang next door from raping and murdering you all is that today they decided not to. And tomorrow is another day.
Top
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:03 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1083
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:09 pm

TFLYTSNBN wrote:
A proposed amendment to the Solarian Legue Constitution:


A well regulated System Defense Force being neccessary for a free solar system, the right of the member systems to have well regulated System Defense Forces shall not be infringed.

I don't think the League constitution needs to be amended at all, I think it needs to be burned to the ground and for them to start fresh.
Top
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:04 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1083
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:09 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:How is that a change?

Even under the old constitution systems had to right to build SDFs and nobody infringed on that right (well not until the SLN started attacking it's own -- arguable attacking a system and its SDF could be seen as infringing).
Sure most system didn't bother to build significant SDFs because they thought they had better things to do with their funds. But their inalienable right still existed.


Don't make it a right, make it an obligation.
Top
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:10 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1083
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:09 pm

tlb wrote:I do not know about the economics, but what you described sounds like a good basis for discussion for the restructured League. I wonder about the need to have both a sufficient number of representatives in the Assembly approve and then also sufficient number of member worlds approve (by referendum or by government vote?); but if that is how the reformed constitution is written, then I hope they can make it work.

Since most member worlds do not have even one SD and it will take time to construct them to a design plan that has not been created; there will have to be a rather long transition time for each world to get its SDF up to the required minimum force level. It will take even longer if shipyards need certification to build the approved plan.

It would take time but like you said their SD(P)'s, CLAC's and LAC's are just a dream at the end of the war, but they will be properly motivated because of the actions of the SLN and then the fact that the SLN cannot do anything to protect them.
Top
Re: How to downgrade the fleet without upsetting the public?
Post by Sigs   » Thu Aug 01, 2019 3:14 pm

Sigs
Rear Admiral

Posts: 1083
Joined: Mon Mar 16, 2015 5:09 pm

George J. Smith wrote:
There are still thousands of SLN ships in service and in the reserve, parcelling them out to the various SL member systems would create a core of ships for their SDFs. Yes they are obsolete compared to the GA ships, but they are sufficient for system defence when the only people who may attack them would be other SL system members that have the same tech. Where those systems would get the warm bodies to crew the ships is another matter, ships currently in service may well be crewed but not necessarily by residents of all the systems members, ships in reserve have either ghost crews or none at all.

The GA is not interested in taking action against any of the SL member systems as long as those systems limit themselves purely to defence of their systems and shipping, therefore as far as system defence is concerned it doesn't matter that GA tech is much more advanced.


There are 150,000,000 SLN members at the very least, even if the LEague remains at 1700 member systems that still would mean a significant number of people per SDF when you account for the several million who remain in the SLN. They can form the core and build from there, plus with prolong there are likely millions more in each and every system that have previous naval service and that in and of itself should provide a decent core of people for the formation of all SDF's.
Top

Return to Honorverse