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Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson

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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by tlb   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:12 pm

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tlb wrote:All that may be true, but what the Malign really needs to do is to put some very long hard thought into what they can repair about the Detweiler Plan, now that it is in shreds.

They engineered the war between the Solarian League and the Haven Quadrant and it now seems over with both sides much stronger than the Renaissance Factor that was intended to sweep up the pieces, Their agents of influence in the League are being neutralized and the secret of their existence is out.

There is still Darius and the Lenny Dets; but with the retreat to their secret stronghold, they have lost most of their web of corrupt influence through the Manpower pleasure centers and the ties to the interstellar corporations.

They can still come out of their stronghold and spread destruction, but to what effect? Without a roadmap to a desired future, they are lost. If and when a detection system is developed for the spider drive, then they will lose.

cthia wrote:But, is it really in shreds? Perhaps the part in shreds is no longer needed. The Alignment should be nearing its END GAME right about now. Especially since the author hinted that the Lennys are complete. Yes, their agents are being rolled up wholesale (though we really don't have a clue about the full extent of that), but that part of the plan has served its purpose. It would be nice to retain agents, yes, and they still might have some in key areas. However, the mighty gorilla has been defeated. What's the MA to do, wait for the gorilla to go into the weight room and put on some real muscle? Neither you nor I believe the MA are going to give the League or the GA the time they need to get back on balance.

It would be nice to know whether the MA caught wind of the GA's efforts to detect the Spider drive. The MA should know the GA are trying to detect the Spiders, any navy would. But I'm wondering if they have gotten wind of specifics, jump started by Simoes.

I think the only real problem is that the Universe knows about them. But they had to know that would happen sooner or later. The Universe can't do anything about it if it doesn't know where to find them.

Yes, it is in shreds. The whole purpose of the plan was to put the Renaissance Factor into position to become the largest collection of people in inhabited space. The League was supposed to have disintegrated and the opponent too weak to absorb the pieces. Neither of those things happened. If you are calling the League the gorilla, then it has been defeated; but it has not been broken. The League, stripped of the Verge, is still many times bigger than the leaders of the planned succession.

So now the Lenny Dets might sally forth, but that was not the intended endgame. Those ships were to assist in the takeover, not to be the only method of Malign action. To stop the plan the universe does not need to know where to find Darius; if they do not fall into the arms of the Renaissance Factor, then the plan has failed. Once Darius is found the Mesan Alignment is done.
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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by cthia   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:46 pm

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:All that may be true, but what the Malign really needs to do is to put some very long hard thought into what they can repair about the Detweiler Plan, now that it is in shreds.

They engineered the war between the Solarian League and the Haven Quadrant and it now seems over with both sides much stronger than the Renaissance Factor that was intended to sweep up the pieces, Their agents of influence in the League are being neutralized and the secret of their existence is out.

There is still Darius and the Lenny Dets; but with the retreat to their secret stronghold, they have lost most of their web of corrupt influence through the Manpower pleasure centers and the ties to the interstellar corporations.

They can still come out of their stronghold and spread destruction, but to what effect? Without a roadmap to a desired future, they are lost. If and when a detection system is developed for the spider drive, then they will lose.

cthia wrote:But, is it really in shreds? Perhaps the part in shreds is no longer needed. The Alignment should be nearing its END GAME right about now. Especially since the author hinted that the Lennys are complete. Yes, their agents are being rolled up wholesale (though we really don't have a clue about the full extent of that), but that part of the plan has served its purpose. It would be nice to retain agents, yes, and they still might have some in key areas. However, the mighty gorilla has been defeated. What's the MA to do, wait for the gorilla to go into the weight room and put on some real muscle? Neither you nor I believe the MA are going to give the League or the GA the time they need to get back on balance.

It would be nice to know whether the MA caught wind of the GA's efforts to detect the Spider drive. The MA should know the GA are trying to detect the Spiders, any navy would. But I'm wondering if they have gotten wind of specifics, jump started by Simoes.

I think the only real problem is that the Universe knows about them. But they had to know that would happen sooner or later. The Universe can't do anything about it if it doesn't know where to find them.

Yes, it is in shreds. The whole purpose of the plan was to put the Renaissance Factor into position to become the largest collection of people in inhabited space. The League was supposed to have disintegrated and the opponent too weak to absorb the pieces. Neither of those things happened. If you are calling the League the gorilla, then it has been defeated; but it has not been broken. The League, stripped of the Verge, is still many times bigger than the leaders of the planned succession.

So now the Lenny Dets might sally forth, but that was not the intended endgame. Those ships were to assist in the takeover, not to be the only method of Malign action. To stop the plan the universe does not need to know where to find Darius; if they do not fall into the arms of the Renaissance Factor, then the plan has failed. Once Darius is found the Mesan Alignment is done.


SEE.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by tlb   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:52 pm

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kzt wrote:Pulling the environmental gear might well require disassembling the entire ship. Not just gutting it to get the reactors. And I’m not at all sure the build yards would even have the right gear to remove the reactors. I’m sure they could improvise something, but there is probably a reason why they don’t use 2 meter grasers to do that in the repair facilities. Like it killing anyone around by the primary and secondary radiation, and the huge amount of shock damage.

We presume that there were ship boneyards and that those had means of disassembling ships; although if they saw no value in reclamation, then they could feed them into whatever reduces asteroids to raw material.

At this point you and I are just guessing, which can be fun in a harmless way. Instead of 2 meter grasers, I would have guessed either a humongous plasma cutter or a 100 meter radius diamond edged saw blade.

Didn't they go through the armor to fix Nike's reactor problem in The Short Victorious War?
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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by kzt   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:42 pm

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tlb wrote:Didn't they go through the armor to fix Nike's reactor problem in The Short Victorious War?

That was an actual repair facility, not an improvised demolition site. They have all the right tools.
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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by tlb   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:23 pm

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tlb wrote:Didn't they go through the armor to fix Nike's reactor problem in The Short Victorious War?

kzt wrote: That was an actual repair facility, not an improvised demolition site. They have all the right tools.

Were all the repair facilities destroyed in the Yawata Strike? I thought they were dispersed to major bases.
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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by kzt   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:45 pm

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tlb wrote:Were all the repair facilities destroyed in the Yawata Strike? I thought they were dispersed to major bases.

That was at Gendelsbane. Which had been blowed up some years earlier.
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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by tlb   » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:06 pm

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tlb wrote:Were all the repair facilities destroyed in the Yawata Strike? I thought they were dispersed to major bases.

kzt wrote:That was at Gendelsbane. Which had been blowed up some years earlier.

In SVW Nike was repaired at Hancock Station. Gendelsbane was much more, a ship construction site that could handle the largest RMN designs.
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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by Theemile   » Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:23 am

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tlb wrote:
tlb wrote:Were all the repair facilities destroyed in the Yawata Strike? I thought they were dispersed to major bases.

kzt wrote:That was at Gendelsbane. Which had been blowed up some years earlier.

In SVW Nike was repaired at Hancock Station. Gendelsbane was much more, a ship construction site that could handle the largest RMN designs.


The repair bases at Hancock, San Martin, Basilisk, and Sidemore survive are are in use, as are the fleet repair ships. However, they are innundated with the basic repair and maintenance of the RMN and GSN fleets given the removal of the the 4 main repair facilities at Manticore and Blackbird.

Remember, the conversation in SVW was whether it would be more expedient to send the Nike back to Manticore where the SUPERIOR facilities could repair the ship quicker, or make the repair at Hancock. Manticore's facilities were used more for heavy updates and scheduled maintenance cycles (Like Carrier SLEP), and the repair yards were used for the lower level stuff.

The difference is probably Manticore/Grayson yards being similar to a car manufacturer's Dealership's repair shop, while the repair yard are closer to your neighborhood muffler shop. The neighborhood repair shop can probably fix it, but thy might not have the latest parts/tools/knowledge to do the job, and it will take longer to complete. (While a repair ship is more like the quick-change oil shop down the street - it will change the fluids and slap come tape/sealant on the holes, so you can limp back to the repair yards.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by tlb   » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:54 pm

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Theemile wrote:The repair bases at Hancock, San Martin, Basilisk, and Sidemore survive are are in use, as are the fleet repair ships. However, they are innundated with the basic repair and maintenance of the RMN and GSN fleets given the removal of the the 4 main repair facilities at Manticore and Blackbird.

Remember, the conversation in SVW was whether it would be more expedient to send the Nike back to Manticore where the SUPERIOR facilities could repair the ship quicker, or make the repair at Hancock. Manticore's facilities were used more for heavy updates and scheduled maintenance cycles (Like Carrier SLEP), and the repair yards were used for the lower level stuff.

The difference is probably Manticore/Grayson yards being similar to a car manufacturer's Dealership's repair shop, while the repair yard are closer to your neighborhood muffler shop. The neighborhood repair shop can probably fix it, but thy might not have the latest parts/tools/knowledge to do the job, and it will take longer to complete. (While a repair ship is more like the quick-change oil shop down the street - it will change the fluids and slap come tape/sealant on the holes, so you can limp back to the repair yards.

However Hancock Station could do this major replacement quickly enough that it was not worth expending the travel time for a round trip. Which means your analogy undervalues the repair yards. I expect that throughout the war the repair yards were more likely used for the scheduled maintenance cycles, leaving the major space stations to handle construction and heavy updates.
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Re: Post-Yawata Strike Survivors in Grayson
Post by Brigade XO   » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:20 pm

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Oyster Bay was envisioned as massive crippling blows to Manticore, Grayson and Haven but as it had to be rushed there were only enough (just) ships and weapons to hit the 3 major Manticore planitary orbit stations and almost all of the dispursed shipyards plus essentially everything for Blackbird . Not sure what elce was targeted but at both Manticore and Grayson but RFC said it was essentialy all the manufacturing and yards.
Have was dropped from the targeting to concentrate the ships and weapons on Manticore and Grayson

No, sneeking bombs into Manticore and Grayson (which also was using disbursed yards) wouldn't have the effectiveness since you can't get at all that other infrasture (and the yard crews etc).

The RF is going to be in an interesting place to take over as the savior of the "League" members since they are no longer going to just be sweeping up the pieces.
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