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OFS vs SLN

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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:56 am

cthia
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Don't worry guys, I haven't forgotten the ground we've covered here. I know that intel was limited. But the same rumors of super weapons should have gotten back to OFS, even if by way of some FF officer who heard rumors from someone in ONI.

Granted, personal witnesses are far better for this discussion, and my witch hunt. A picture is worth a thousand words. But if you people say nay to that, I've got to trust my people.

But here's the thing that fuels my disconnect. The SL had to have battled piracy too. When I say battled, they wrestled with their lion's share of the problem just like everyone else. That would have been OFS's bailiwick by proxy of FF. Pirates aren't stupid. You attack a freighter then take the booty back to your camp to sort it out, divide and or sell.* FF would be tasked with finding them. I can't believe the scent from the fresh trail wouldn't lead to places like Talbot, or even in the Verge. At any rate, what about the Zunker System, which became prominent in 20 P.D. The League was very interested in that system. As was the SK. Pirates would have been interested as well, considering the enormous wealth and growth. Wouldn't Zunker be a very good place for overlapping spheres of interest between FF and the SK?

BTW, pirates aren't stipid but they're dumb. They're dumb because they're criminals. Now I'm certain someone is wondering why the hell would FF be wasted on detective work. Well, I've wondered about that as well. A lot of the stolen cargo would be considered worthless against the cost to track down criminals. But what about the rare cargo that isn't. The cargo that is important to medicine that prevents an outbreak that is needed. That can't get into the wrong hands. If FF followed any crumbs left by dumb criminals, I'd think it'd lead to Talbot, where the RMN was operating. Although the ships used there, you say, were the old broken down bag of bolts. So, we'll catch no joy there.

Also, the SL used the MWJ too. They saw an increase in tolls. I'd assume FF used the junction too. No chance of seeing anything, accidentally?



I had a much better scenario and discussion inside the computer that ate my homework, but I suppose I can't cry over spilled silicon milk.

P.S. To tlb, when I said "vital intel," I meant the same vital intel that was widely suppressed, and files dead lettered which was still there for Gweon (?) to find, that something fishy was happening with the weapons produced by the neobarbs. I can't believe those same suppressed reports didn't land in OFS's Inbox, officially, or by way of someone who knew someone who knew someone, in, let's say Fleet Acquisitions, or any number of other bureaucratic offices in the enormous League machinery.

*I wonder about the logistics of that. Here on earth the goods are taken to ports and distributed in ocean containers. When pirates attack in the Honorverse, do they go to some port?

At the end of the day, governments lose income from pirating. Taxes on goods not sold. Governments don't like that. Nor do insurance companies.

Because of time constraints, this has been a drive-by shooting.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by schoeffelk   » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:40 am

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As was stated, let's assume the reports did make it back to Earth, then what?

The MA agent(s) would have deep sixed the reports by never acknowledging receipt or, more likely, the following.

"We are the SLN and we have the best ships and research department. No upstart neo-barb can come close to matching anything we have."

You have reports that no one in the upper echelons is willing to believe. The intel reports are irrelevant unless you have someone in power willing to act on them, even if it is to get more current or validated intel. The SLN and Mandarins were arrogant and unwilling to even consider this.
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:55 am

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cthia wrote:Don't worry guys, I haven't forgotten the ground we've covered here. I know that intel was limited. But the same rumors of super weapons should have gotten back to OFS, even if by way of some FF officer who heard rumors from someone in ONI.



If a person in State gets a rumour of a minor nation possessing some here-to-fore unlikely military capability, he gets his best advice from his senior military advisor, and passes it off to both the State Departments' own internal intel arm, to the military, and to the CIA. It isn't the role of the OFS administrators to investigate "rumours" directly--they get support from the Gendarmerie (people like Harahap) or the Navy as seen in Roszak's Lieutenant Commander Jiri Watanapongse, and Commodore Thurgoodes' spook.

But mostly? they just didn't believe the rumours.

Rob
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by cthia   » Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:12 am

cthia
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Just a bit-o-tid to chew on . . .

Remember Abby's inspiration as a little princess staring up at the pinpricks of light as Honor fought insurmountable odds?

Somewhere over the Solarian rainbow made by the storm when Honor came acallin, another little tyke is inspired by Honor Harrington, even before she came face-to-face with the legend behind the rumors. She'll grow up to be just like Abigail who's just like Honor. She may even come to command a warship that will assist the legendary Salamander or a Harrington offspring in the upcoming battles against the Alignment.

Or, if we take into account alternate endings and the cloudy bad weather the Harrington Doctrine tried to climb above, a not so friendly spawn of Harrington's.

HOT DAMN!

"Control yourself man!"


Back to our regular scheduled programming.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by Jonathan_S   » Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:14 pm

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cthia wrote:But here's the thing that fuels my disconnect. The SL had to have battled piracy too. When I say battled, they wrestled with their lion's share of the problem just like everyone else. That would have been OFS's bailiwick by proxy of FF. Pirates aren't stupid. You attack a freighter then take the booty back to your camp to sort it out, divide and or sell.* FF would be tasked with finding them. I can't believe the scent from the fresh trail wouldn't lead to places like Talbot, or even in the Verge. At any rate, what about the Zunker System, which became prominent in 20 P.D. The League was very interested in that system. As was the SK. Pirates would have been interested as well, considering the enormous wealth and growth. Wouldn't Zunker be a very good place for overlapping spheres of interest between FF and the SK?
The SLN and FF probably don't actually end up fighting that much piracy.

For pirates to prosper they need a confluence of a bunch of items, and failing to have any one of them makes piracy unsupportable.

1) Sufficient density to shipping that they can take victims and move on without lying in wait for months

2) Weak enough system security that nobody detects or chases off the pirate, either while laying in wait or too quickly after taking a prize

3) A shipyard willing to provide maintenance (and possibly repair services) to pirates - these aren't sailing ships that can largely be maintained by their crews on supplied captured from their victims. But also they can't really hide that they're a heavily armed private ship - which is questionable at best.

4) Arms merchants willing to sell spares and missiles to the pirates

5) Business backers willing to put up capital in exchange for a slice of the illegal profits

6) Fences willing and able to accept captured ships and cargo and sell it on quickly discretely for a profit.

And that usually requires a system government willing to at least turn a blind eye to pirates being supported from their system.

If even one of those doesn't exist, or is too far from the others, piracy falters from being uneconomical.


I'm sure there are OFS governors willing to look the other way, for a price, for pirates operating out of their systems. But then FF wouldn't be chasing those pirates down.

Talbot didn't have much of a piracy problem because they were too poor - they pretty much failed on points 1,3,5, and 6. Not enough valuable shipping to turn a reasonable profit and without a fat profit no systems likely to support piracy.

And that's the case for quite a lot of the verge. They get a tramp freighter every few months a 4-6 freighters a year can't sustain enough pirate activity to chase down those freighters.

Then the League and the Shell, which do have the traffic density, pretty much fair at least point 2. Even the most pitiful SDF will have enough LACs to make it inadvisable for pirates to lurk around trying to snap up valuable ships and escape before help arrives.

And until the Lynx wormhole was discovered Manticore wouldn't have been way over there - and since Silesia was out past Manticore, and months of flight time (ignoring wormohles) any pirates hunting in or near OFS space wouldn't be fencing their loot that far away, nor would FF be pirate hunting hundreds of lightyears from their sphere of influence. I'm just not seeing where the anti-piracy efforts overlap.

Then after the Lynx terminus there was barely than 5 years from that till the end of the war with the League -- not really enough time to develop and deploy breakthrough tech based on increased exposure to the RMN.
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by tlb   » Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:57 pm

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cthia wrote:Personally, I've traced the blame back to OFS as the likely suspect to have dropped the ball. We ain't gonna blame everything on this hidden entity. Or the Mandarins.

cthia wrote:This is a WITCH HUNT. I thought I made that clear.

cthia wrote:To tlb, when I said "vital intel," I meant the same vital intel that was widely suppressed, and files dead lettered which was still there for Gweon (?) to find, that something fishy was happening with the weapons produced by the neobarbs. I can't believe those same suppressed reports didn't land in OFS's Inbox, officially, or by way of someone who knew someone who knew someone, in, let's say Fleet Acquisitions, or any number of other bureaucratic offices in the enormous League machinery.

Congratulations,

you have found your first "witch". Captain Caswell Gweon, head of the ONI Office of Economic Analysis (Section 3), was young for his position (in ART, where we first see him); because he inherited the position when Vice Admiral Yountz died in an "accident". In UH he is a Rear Admiral when he convinces the SLN brass to attack Beowulf. Afterward he dies, as his nanites are triggered while being confronted as a Malign agent.

A second "witch" you might investigate is Rajmund Nyhus, head of section 2 in OFS, who made sure that OFS viewed the Mantie threat only in terms of insurrections in the Verge.

Saying "I can't believe" is not evidence of anything except your thought processes. Are you really saying that your efforts in this thread will not consider the activities of the hidden entity?
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:51 am

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cthia wrote:Don't worry guys, I haven't forgotten the ground we've covered here. I know that intel was limited. But the same rumors of super weapons should have gotten back to OFS, even if by way of some FF officer who heard rumors from someone in ONI.

Granted, personal witnesses are far better for this discussion, and my witch hunt. A picture is worth a thousand words. But if you people say nay to that, I've got to trust my people.

But here's the thing that fuels my disconnect. The SL had to have battled piracy too. When I say battled, they wrestled with their lion's share of the problem just like everyone else. That would have been OFS's bailiwick by proxy of FF. Pirates aren't stupid. You attack a freighter then take the booty back to your camp to sort it out, divide and or sell.* FF would be tasked with finding them. I can't believe the scent from the fresh trail wouldn't lead to places like Talbot, or even in the Verge. At any rate, what about the Zunker System, which became prominent in 20 P.D. The League was very interested in that system. As was the SK. Pirates would have been interested as well, considering the enormous wealth and growth. Wouldn't Zunker be a very good place for overlapping spheres of interest between FF and the SK?

BTW, pirates aren't stipid but they're dumb. They're dumb because they're criminals. Now I'm certain someone is wondering why the hell would FF be wasted on detective work. Well, I've wondered about that as well. A lot of the stolen cargo would be considered worthless against the cost to track down criminals. But what about the rare cargo that isn't. The cargo that is important to medicine that prevents an outbreak that is needed. That can't get into the wrong hands. If FF followed any crumbs left by dumb criminals, I'd think it'd lead to Talbot, where the RMN was operating. Although the ships used there, you say, were the old broken down bag of bolts. So, we'll catch no joy there.

Also, the SL used the MWJ too. They saw an increase in tolls. I'd assume FF used the junction too. No chance of seeing anything, accidentally?



I had a much better scenario and discussion inside the computer that ate my homework, but I suppose I can't cry over spilled silicon milk.

P.S. To tlb, when I said "vital intel," I meant the same vital intel that was widely suppressed, and files dead lettered which was still there for Gweon (?) to find, that something fishy was happening with the weapons produced by the neobarbs. I can't believe those same suppressed reports didn't land in OFS's Inbox, officially, or by way of someone who knew someone who knew someone, in, let's say Fleet Acquisitions, or any number of other bureaucratic offices in the enormous League machinery.

*I wonder about the logistics of that. Here on earth the goods are taken to ports and distributed in ocean containers. When pirates attack in the Honorverse, do they go to some port?

At the end of the day, governments lose income from pirating. Taxes on goods not sold. Governments don't like that. Nor do insurance companies.

Because of time constraints, this has been a drive-by shooting.



I have often wondered why SL flagged cargo ships and passenger liners that operate in the Haven sector and Silesia have not passed on warnings to the SL about RMN and RHN engaging in missile battles at extreme range.

Then I remembered that the Manticoran Merchant Marine has captured a such an enormous volume of SL internal trade. The SL probably has no civilian ships operating outside the SL.
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by tlb   » Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:14 am

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:I have often wondered why SL flagged cargo ships and passenger liners that operate in the Haven sector and Silesia have not passed on warnings to the SL about RMN and RHN engaging in missile battles at extreme range.

Then I remembered that the Manticoran Merchant Marine has captured a such an enormous volume of SL internal trade. The SL probably has no civilian ships operating outside the SL.

I am pretty sure there are passenger liners and there are certainly news couriers, but they would not be in the midst of a battle until Lovat perhaps or Manticore.

Given the human drama there should have been lots of news coverage about the barbarians fighting each other. We know during Peoples Republic phase that one Solarian News operation got banned for not reporting the official Haven line. But it is entirely possible that nothing technical got reported, given the way some gossip rags might have reported on recent conflicts.

You really need military analysts observing to know if anything new is being added; such as the Self Defense Force observers, whose reports were ignored.
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:47 am

cthia
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tlb wrote:
TFLYTSNBN wrote:I have often wondered why SL flagged cargo ships and passenger liners that operate in the Haven sector and Silesia have not passed on warnings to the SL about RMN and RHN engaging in missile battles at extreme range.

Then I remembered that the Manticoran Merchant Marine has captured a such an enormous volume of SL internal trade. The SL probably has no civilian ships operating outside the SL.

I am pretty sure there are passenger liners and there are certainly news couriers, but they would not be in the midst of a battle until Lovat perhaps or Manticore.

Given the human drama there should have been lots of news coverage about the barbarians fighting each other. We know during Peoples Republic phase that one Solarian News operation got banned for not reporting the official Haven line. But it is entirely possible that nothing technical got reported, given the way some gossip rags might have reported on recent conflicts.

You really need military analysts observing to know if anything new is being added; such as the Self Defense Force observers, whose reports were ignored.

My point is that those "reports" should have been the crème de la crème of gossip before being dead lettered. And that real patriots of Mother Earth should have been just as saddened by her present state, path and heading as Theisman, Pritchart and Foraker about their Republic.

It isn't about who is in charge and who has authority. It is about who cares about the country and who will, and are, doing what it takes to right the ship and fend off foes. That, is accomplished behind the scenes in the good-ol-boy network. Ask Pritchart and Co.

Do we really believe POTUS is the real power behind such acronymous anonymous three letter entities who are really running things? Heck, the President can't even find out what goes on behind closed Roswell doors.

OFS had no power, off the record. They had no ships, off the record. But they were plenty poised to right a few wrongs. The League and the SLN was a massive machinery. Redirecting a few bolts, behind the scenes, should have been child's play. I would have found it quite enjoyable had a number of FF units been upgraded with state of the art weapons. But, that's just me and my quirks as to how the world turns.

I don't wish to discount the MA's activities, no. But the League is a massive machinery. Everyone was not compromisingly nanited. Heck, everyone on Haven may as well have been controlled by nannies and agents too, except our Heroes.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by tlb   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:02 am

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cthia wrote:OFS had no power, off the record. They had no ships, off the record. But they were plenty poised to right a few wrongs. The League and the SLN was a massive machinery. Redirecting a few bolts, behind the scenes, should have been child's play. I would have found it quite enjoyable had a number of FF units been upgraded with state of the art weapons. But, that's just me and my quirks as to how the world turns.

I don't wish to discount the MA's activities, no. But the League is a massive machinery. Everyone was not compromisingly nanited. Heck, everyone on Haven may as well have been controlled by nannies and agents too, except our Heroes.

Since OFS is one the main sources of the League's corruption (the exploitation of the Verge planets), I can't believe that it could also be your source of its betterment. In the absence of evidence it sounds as though you are just generating fan fiction as an alternative to the behind the scenes manipulation that has been operating for centuries.

You might want to address how an example you gave of the way this might might work, Caswwll Gweon, turned out to be one of the agents working against the League's best interests. If you have evidence of the number of Malign agents in Haven, then let us hear that also. Note that there do not have to be many such agents, if they can cause the "natural" deaths of those that stand in their way; such as Gweon's former section head.
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