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OFS vs SLN

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OFS vs SLN
Post by cthia   » Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:51 pm

cthia
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THE UNIVERSE IS MAGNORMOUS. HUGE EVEN.



SLN

VS

OFS

"Since I'm aware of how business works, something has bugged me since the beginning of the Honorverse," the dummy in the back of the class lets slip. :oops: 'What the "****" happened to OFS?'"

"Pardon me?"

"
1. OFS is an [entity instrument] of the government's. Not of the SLN, when you get right down to it—how business really works and how big government really works, that is. They were the part of the navy in the fighting rings and up against the ropes. They should have had the best hardware right off the docks. In my head, I see an OFS branch of the navy where the power truly lies. Essentially, OFS should have been the Seal Team of the SLN. They had the same access as the SLN to the enormous budget of the League, not the budget of the Navy. I really can't understand why OFS didn't benefit from the exact same enormous budget as well. Especially when appealing to the public that the deaths of its sons and daughters were happening on the front lines. In OFS. It would have been like sending only our second and third generation equipment to occupy our bases, since currently we have the luxury of redeploying quickly to head off any insurrection. That isn't a luxury in the Honorverse. To dispense her responsibilities, OFS would have had to have ships everywhere - an enormous fleet to cover its equally enormous "sphere of influence," even in time of peace.

2. Plain and simply. . . Why didn't OFS have a much more powerful navy? Since they had access to the same TUFT units of aupressedLn from the League's enormous naval budget. Plus, they were not idiots or ignorant like the Battle Fleet that had no battles. You mean to tell me, no one in OFS had a single connection in the government that could divert some of the enormous naval budget to itself? Or hath charm to soothe the savage beast into its own budget? There was so much money available.

3. That's another thing, talking about the Reserve Fleet the SLN had. Why didn't OFS have at least twice as many ships? Why was the SLN reserve so large, lying dormant? When OFS was so small, relatively compared to its enormous bailiwick? The universe is large - huge even.*

*Even though nobody was stupid enough to challenge the gorilla face to face, it doesn't mean every system played nice all the time. The Protectorates. The Verge. They all needed policing. Theft, crime, piracy and insurrection, browbeating and expansion, should have naturally guaranteed the size and quality of OFS. Or how could UPS err OFS absolutely get there overnight? To suppress piracy, practically, your response time had to be low. Very low. How low can you go?

Same as in the real world, I would imagine the criminal element screws around with the cops, especially Keystone Cops. Tell me it 'taint so polities mess with OFS? Certainly not OFS. But if OFS couldn't respond quickly to anywhere in the Protectorates, what difference is it if they show up long after cargo has been looted, bootied and bandied about, and the men and women raped, long before any response time? What's more, how is cargo ever even recovered?

Therefore, I seem to see the reality of the situation meriting them having enough ships buzzing all about the galaxy to essentially turn OFS into some modern day equivalent of the Gestapo - the largest police force in the galaxy. Enough to make the Nazi War Machine envious, but proud.*


THE HUMAN ELEMENT OF OFS's BAILIWICK

Let's not forget the human element and human nature in OFS' activities. If citizens are always moving outward from the Core to escape the gorilla's smell then OFS is running into them again and again. "Fancy seeing you here." Guaranteeing your present assignment constitutes browbeating the very same family and friends you kissed goodbye months ago.

For the US, it takes an awful lot more firepower to represent "over seas." In the Honorverse, OFS essentially operated "over seas." They were the entity deployed. They were the Frontiersmen. These boys are supposed to be packing! They're supposed to have the latest shit. You didn't go to hostile ports unless you had your best fighters. Whoever was in charge of OFS should have been fired and an Admiral appointed who had some balls. Didn't OFS have any Halsey's?

Forgive me, but in UH, I was expecting someone from OFS to give Honor a go. "I'll take that challenge, Harrington."

"I know. I know. We all know what would have happened. But perhaps, just maybe, OFS -- because of a better trained and supported "Navy," would merit Honor laying its robe upon its worthy body after defeat.

So what exactly did happened to OFS. And how did she get to be so dirty? What went wrong from the days of the young, beautiful and noble OFS of her supple youth?

4. Exactly how did OFS browbeat star nations to accept its protection? How does that work? If I decide 'No I'll take my chances.' What does that mean, exactly?

5. In light of all of that, let's make it clearer this time, "What the "f**k" happened to OFS?'" I know much of what textev says, but it looks different under a microscope.



She should have been the modern equivalent of the Gestapo. Only much deadlier.

AND ANOTHER THING. DIDN'T OFS AND THE SLN SCRIMMAGE? You mean NO wargames between the two? Then how did the SLN know they weren't outclassed? Which should have been the case all across the board.

I'll stop right there to catch my breath, before I can catch up with myself."

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:05 pm

TFLYTSNBN
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OFS has the responsibility to kick the crap out of people who have niether the technology or the industrial base much less the technology to offer significan resistance. Sort of like the US invading African or Central American fecal cavities. The natives with spears have no chance against troops with M-4s or M-14s. The natives can offer no credible resistance unless someone gives the natives AK-47s.

OFS does not need ICBMs, F-22s, CVNs with F-18s or F35Cs, Abrahms tanks or even Blackhawk helicopters and Bradley IFVs.

OFS does need M4 carbines, M-2 HMGs, HUMVEEs and may be Hueys. All of this stuff is transported on modified freighters, may be armed with the equivalent of CIWS for self defense and 105 howitzers for planetary bombardment.

OBTW, OFS does not recruit troops from the SL core worlds. OFS recruits people like Thandi from Verge and Shell shitholes who are willing and eager to meet new people on other Verge and Shell shitholes, and kill them, just to get out of their own shithole. The SL core world people do not care if OFS thugs get killed nor are they willing to trust the cannon fodder with the latest and greatest weaponry.
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by tlb   » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:11 pm

tlb
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cthia wrote:AND ANOTHER THING. DIDN'T OFS AND THE SLN SCRIMMAGE? You mean NO wargames between the two? Then how did the SLN know they weren't outclassed? Which should have been the case all across the board.

I assume you mean Frontier Fleet (which was the naval arm used by OFS).

First: I don't think the ship types for Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet were the same. I doubt that Frontier Fleet had anything bigger than a cruiser, since they were there to show the flag in the Verge (with the threat of Battle Fleet in the background) and support the intervention troops - either Marine or Gendarmes.

Second: I don't think that Battle Fleet admirals would stoop to match themselves to Frontier Fleet.

Third: If they had competed, then they would not have learned anything new; since the weapons and doctrine would be roughly the same between the two fleets. Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet were only outclassed by the Andermani, Grayson, Haven and Manticore; which they would only find out by fighting one of them. Note that the Malign was well aware that the Solarian fleets did not stand a chance, but had encouraged the rot so no one at Sol knew it.

Fourth: It was mentioned as a novel concept in the books when someone decided that the enemy in the war games should be at a least as good as the SLN.
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by Fox2!   » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:34 pm

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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:AND ANOTHER THING. DIDN'T OFS AND THE SLN SCRIMMAGE? You mean NO wargames between the two? Then how did the SLN know they weren't outclassed? Which should have been the case all across the board.

I assume you mean Frontier Fleet (which was the naval arm used by OFS).

First: I don't think the ship types for Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet were the same. I doubt that Frontier Fleet had anything bigger than a cruiser, since they were there to show the flag in the Verge (with the threat of Battle Fleet in the background) and support the intervention troops - either Marine or Gendarmes.

Second: I don't think that Battle Fleet admirals would stoop to match themselves to Frontier Fleet.

Third: If they had competed, then they would not have learned anything new; since the weapons and doctrine would be roughly the same between the two fleets. Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet were only outclassed by the Andermani, Grayson, Haven and Manticore; which they would only find out by fighting one of them. Note that the Malign was well aware that the Solarian fleets did not stand a chance, but had encouraged the rot so no one at Sol knew it.

Fourth: It was mentioned as a novel concept in the books when someone decided that the enemy in the war games should be at a least as good as the SLN.


OFS was a part of the Interior Ministry, IIRC. SLN belonged to Defense (which was not mentioned at a higher level than the SLN. I don't recall any mention of a Solarian Army (I may be mistaken).

Frontier Fleet provided most of the lighter forces (BC and below) of the SLN, while Battle Fleet emphasized the Wall. Not that BF didn't have escorts, but most of them were in FF. SLN plans called for FF to provide most of the escort and scouting forces if the SLN ever went to war in a major way, not just a scratch squadron of cruisers and destroyers swatting pirates or smashing Protectorates who expressed displeasure with their OFS and multi-stellar Overlords. The Gendamarie provided the ground based bully boys who did the smashing up close and personally.
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by stewart   » Sat Jun 01, 2019 6:41 pm

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[quote="cthia"][

-------------------

As I see it -- SL OFS and Frontier Fleet form a parallel to the pre-WWII USN rivalry between the Battleship Navy and the Carrier Navy. It took Battles of Coral Sea and Midway to "resolve" that issue.

Battle Fleet and the Core Worlds were the more prestigious postings (with easier access to the political movers/shakers and less conflict risk) with Frontier Fleet, OFS and the Gendarmarie out in the hinderlands.

Operationally, as others have noted, Frontier Fleet did not need the "latest and greatest" for bullying intimidation actions when (by Honorverse modern standards) an obsolescent Destroyer or Light Cruiser could decimate most Verge systems/planets

Frontier Fleet may have been more aware of the new realities of warfare, but their reports did not agree with the perceived wisdom of SLN Naval Intelligence or Operational Analysis.

-- Stewart
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by Armed Neo-Bob   » Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:01 pm

Armed Neo-Bob
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cthia wrote:THE UNIVERSE IS MAGNORMOUS. HUGE EVEN.



SLN

VS

OFS

"Since I'm aware of how business works, something has bugged me since the beginning of the Honorverse," the dummy in the back of the class lets slip. :oops: 'What the "****" happened to OFS?'"

"Pardon me?"

"
1. OFS is an [entity instrument] of the government's. Not of the SLN, when you get right down to it—how business really works and how big government really works, that is. They were the part of the navy in the fighting rings and up against the ropes. They should have had the best hardware right off the docks. In my head, I see an OFS branch of the navy where the power truly lies. SNIP and SNIP and SNIP


Are you giving up on Sleep, again? :)

Your niece is going to spank you. Where did you come up with the notion that OFS is a military entity? You are asking why the Department of 'Colonial Exploitation' doesn't have an internal and private navy; why a civil agency overseeing a series of small police states doesn't compete with the forces of its own nation. Forces that they can legally control. This is Duenas in Saltash; not Dudley Doright of the RCMP.

Go back to the text; OFS was created a couple hundred years after the creation of the League(and the SLN), in response to a perceived need in the Verge. In a bureaucratic turf war, this civilian agency ended up being under the control of the Dept. of Interior (McCartney, today) instead of State (Kolokoltsov). This agency is supported by the Gendarmerie (for intelligence and head bashing operations on the dirt) and the SLN (in the guise of Frontier Fleet) for its in-space needs.

Why do you think they even needed their own military?

The tech used by the Gendarmes is far more sophisticated than what is available to any rebels; the equipment the paramilitary police (intervention battalions) have is a lot better than whatever antiques are normally available to any opposition.

It is also stressed several times in the books that the Frontier Fleet is substantially understrength due to the inertia/corruption inherent to the entire Solarian bureaucracy and society. OFS KNEW they were the top dog, and the military hardware and personnel to support that could come out of some other department budget, thank you very much. It didn't get the ships because Battle Fleet won the appropriations battle in the budget war a long time ago, and tradition rules.

Think of the creation of the Colonial office in the UK during the heyday of the East India Company. When the public figured out what was going on in India, the government created the office to prevent abuses. . . . you call it--successful overall or not?

Or, William Randolph Hearst and the war with Colombia. We created Panama just so not to pay for the rights to build the Canal. Powerful individuals can manipulate public affairs if they choose to. If enough money is involved, ethics go out the airlock.

Aside from going through a half dozen books for text, re-read the pearls regarding the division of BF/and FF. That division is exactly why they don't have more ships in the verge.

Regards,

Rob
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:19 am

cthia
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Posts: 11274
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

I specifically left Frontier Fleet (FF) out if it. She's simply OFS's 100 pound gorilla. I wanted someone else to bring her up.

THANKS.

That way, it'll be clear that I want to specifically sort out OFS's mess, and her bailiwick. I'm gonna pen this fucking shit on somebody.

THE IN VI NC IB LE SOLARIAN LEAGUE FELL!

I WANT SOME BUTTS! I'M GONNA HAVE MYSELF SOME BUTTS! I WANT IT FAST! I WANT IT NOW! I WANT SOME BUTT IN HERE ON MY DESK BEFORE FIVE O-CLOCK TOMORROW! I WANT SOMEBODY'S BUTT! I'VE HAD IT!

****** *

I've caught up to myself. Now its time for you to catch up to me.
I'll slow up again, so you can catch up.



P.S. Sleep?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by tlb   » Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:52 am

tlb
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Posts: 1133
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cthia wrote:I've caught up to myself. Now its time for you to catch up to me.
I'll slow up again, so you can catch up.

P.S. Sleep?

Are you admitting that you have been on speed, because so far you are talking nonsense?

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt by guessing you meant Frontier versus Battle Fleets, but that is clearly not your plan.

How would a war game between the OFS and SLN work and why do you think that it would prove anything?
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:26 am

cthia
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Posts: 11274
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:10 pm

tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:I've caught up to myself. Now its time for you to catch up to me.
I'll slow up again, so you can catch up.

P.S. Sleep?

Are you admitting that you have been on speed, because so far you are talking nonsense?

I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt by guessing you meant Frontier versus Battle Fleets, but that is clearly not your plan.

How would a war game between the OFS and SLN work and why do you think that it would prove anything?

FF would represent OFS in any games. It goes without saying. But FF is only of tangential concern. If traditional wargames are set up between the two, the heads of each faction would be responsible for the arrangement. That means OFS.

As to the purpose of the wargames? Why, it would be to serve the same purpose as it did in the Manticore Binary System. To sharpen and shave the gorilla to excellence. And to highlight the promising officers while exposing the Youngs and Santinos. But bracket that notion, I was simply gathering wool. It is secondary again to 'WTF happened to cause OFS to sit idly by and allow this SituatioN to get All Fucked Up.'

Personally, I've traced the blame back to OFS as the likely suspect to have dropped the ball. We ain't gonna blame everything on this hidden entity. Or the Mandarins.

OFS's implied responsibility (bailiwick) is insinuated to be much deeper than you allow.

I'll slow up even further, while dodging accusations of insanity induced by insomnia.

Peer under the skirt and take a peek for yourself. Go on.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: OFS vs SLN
Post by tlb   » Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:21 am

tlb
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Posts: 1133
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cthia wrote:As to the purpose of the wargames? Why, it would be to serve the same purpose as it did in the Manticore Binary System. To sharpen and shave the gorilla to excellence. And to highlight the promising officers while exposing the Youngs and Santinos. But bracket that notion, I was simply gathering wool. It is secondary again to 'WTF happened to cause OFS to sit idly by and allow this SituatioN to get All Fucked Up.'

Personally, I've traced the blame back to OFS as the likely suspect to have dropped the ball. We ain't gonna blame everything on this hidden entity. Or the Mandarins.

OFS's implied responsibility (bailiwick) is insinuated to be much deeper than you allow.

I'll slow up even further, while dodging accusations of insanity induced by insomnia.

I already put forth the problem with war gaming between Battle Fleet and Frontier Fleet (or OFS if you prefer):

If they had competed, then they would not have learned anything new; since the weapons and doctrine would be roughly the same between the two fleets. Frontier Fleet and Battle Fleet were only outclassed by the Andermani, Grayson, Haven and Manticore; which they would only find out by fighting one of them. Note that the Malign was well aware that the Solarian fleets did not stand a chance, but had encouraged the rot so no one at Sol knew it.

OFS concerns are limited to what is going on in the Verge and who can we exploit next. Only the Self Defense Forces of some of the League systems were paying attention to the changes in war making that was happening in the Havenite War and their reports were being suppressed by the SLN "intelligence" braches that should have been actively observing. It is those "intelligence" branches that completely failed their responsibility. OFS would not be the one that should have had spies running around Manticore and Haven.
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