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Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse

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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by kzt   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:45 am

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However I’ll still argue that Lee Harvey Oswald was not “working inside the system”. And despite Chuck Schemer and MSNBC protests to the contrary, neither was James Hodgkinson.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:47 pm

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cthia wrote:
Cartref wrote:There could be another reason, not specifically covered by runsforcelery, and that could be simply that both Yu & Caslet are both extremely honourable men and only defected after considerable soul searching and much heartache.

Would that honour prevent them from renouncing their Grason citizenship with all its like backlash from the antagonistic Grayson Steadholders.

Plus what reason could they give to Grayson for do this, they are both well treated and highly respected in Grayson

Wives of their own on Grayson might make them feel really content. I always hoped the author would have a word with Cupid on their behalf. Defectors away from their homes and family "stranded" on an entirely new planet without love in their lives has to have its downsides. A wife -- or three -- and family, would go a long way to make them feel at home and really allow them to heal. In fact, they could find love right from Honor's Steading.


Given their status, they might have 28 wives, each.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:14 pm

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kzt wrote:However I’ll still argue that Lee Harvey Oswald was not “working inside the system”. And despite Chuck Schemer and MSNBC protests to the contrary, neither was James Hodgkinson.

If you wish, I should have used a better phrase to describe her work while the Legislaturists were in power; but it is accurate with respect to the Committee of Public Safety. If they had known they would have executed her, but her lover was an excellent officer.

The James Hodgkinson remark is getting a bit too topical and questionable.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by runsforcelery   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 7:03 pm

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cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven. SNIP




Well? Y'all know I don't shy away from opening cans of worms. Would you believe its a humane effort to free the little enslaved earth dwellers? I didn't think so. But! I sure ain't interested in opening another can-o-worms so soon on the heels err lids of the one I opened in the ramblings thread. Nope, I'm tired of having to leave my house incognito. 8-) Especially considering the side of the worms in which I squirm, too. At the very least, I'll just hazard pointing out that this smells like the same uncovered manhole leading to the same sewer Beowulf stepped in. Two wrongs or two treasons, don't make a right. I know. I know. One has to consider the greater good. That's what they say, anyway.

I will also assume the fact that Caslet later assisted Harrington and her raggedy band of officers to escape Ransom's wrath was clearly more of the same. Simply in for a penny in for a pound.

At any rate—stuffing these worms back in that can. . . Ummph! Ummph! Ummph! GET BACK IN THERE! Sorry worms. STOP SQUIRMING!—what I'd like to tackle is what Honor did to Caslet after his assist with the pirates. Caslet thought Wayfarer was a freighter being "stuck up" by pirates. Then the stuck ups stuck up Caslet. Essentially Honor said, "Sorry, Warner, thanks for the help, but this is a stick up. Hands up!"

I shook my head at Honor on that one.
Dadgum girl. Did ya have ta?


He didn't help them escape Ransom. He simply tried to see they were treated decently -- knowing he was putting his own life in danger -- and then happened along at exactly the wrong moment (ie., when Harkness turned up with the guns) and was more or less kidnapped by the escaping prisoners. (Who knew damned well that Ransom would never believe that he hadn't helped them and that kidnapping him was the only way to keep him alive.)

He joined the active resistance and escape attempt only after his interview with Parnell, who basically told him he was a dead man walking if he ever returned to Haven and simultaneously told him that the people he was serving were a bunch of murderers who had massacred the entire "legitimate" government and then blamed the navy to which he had sworn his oath as an officer for their crime in order to purge (murder) any member of the officer corps who might have attempted to honor his/her oath of allegiance to the original government.

I could make a really good case for Amos Parnell being his legitimate commanding officer, and Parnell essentially ordered him to defect!


"Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as Piglet came back from the dead.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:18 pm

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cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven. SNIP




Well? Y'all know I don't shy away from opening cans of worms. Would you believe its a humane effort to free the little enslaved earth dwellers? I didn't think so. But! I sure ain't interested in opening another can-o-worms so soon on the heels err lids of the one I opened in the ramblings thread. Nope, I'm tired of having to leave my house incognito. 8-) Especially considering the side of the worms in which I squirm, too. At the very least, I'll just hazard pointing out that this smells like the same uncovered manhole leading to the same sewer Beowulf stepped in. Two wrongs or two treasons, don't make a right. I know. I know. One has to consider the greater good. That's what they say, anyway.

I will also assume the fact that Caslet later assisted Harrington and her raggedy band of officers to escape Ransom's wrath was clearly more of the same. Simply in for a penny in for a pound.

At any rate—stuffing these worms back in that can. . . Ummph! Ummph! Ummph! GET BACK IN THERE! Sorry worms. STOP SQUIRMING!—what I'd like to tackle is what Honor did to Caslet after his assist with the pirates. Caslet thought Wayfarer was a freighter being "stuck up" by pirates. Then the stuck ups stuck up Caslet. Essentially Honor said, "Sorry, Warner, thanks for the help, but this is a stick up. Hands up!"

I shook my head at Honor on that one.
Dadgum girl. Did ya have ta?


runsforcelery wrote:He didn't help them escape Ransom. He simply tried to see they were treated decently -- knowing he was putting his own life in danger -- and then happened along at exactly the wrong moment (ie., when Harkness turned up with the guns) and was more or less kidnapped by the escaping prisoners. (Who knew damned well that Ransom would never believe that he hadn't helped them and that kidnapping him was the only way to keep him alive.)

He joined the active resistance and escape attempt only after his interview with Parnell, who basically told him he was a dead man walking if he ever returned to Haven and simultaneously told him that the people he was serving were a bunch of murderers who had massacred the entire "legitimate" government and then blamed the navy to which he had sworn his oath as an officer for their crime in order to purge (murder) any member of the officer corps who might have attempted to honor his/her oath of allegiance to the original government.

I could make a really good case for Amos Parnell being his legitimate commanding officer, and Parnell essentially ordered him to defect!

I'm afraid I led you down the wrong path from what I was actually thinking. My mistake, and my apology. When I said Caslet helped our heroes escape Ransom's wrath, I meant her intended wrath. Ransom wanted them all dead, at the end of the day. Even while on Hell, Caslet could have betrayed the entire group. (I kept waiting for that shoe to drop). He could have flipped the script and said he was playing "possum" to catch them all unawares.

Would he actually have been a dead man walking if he'd delivered such an important political prisoner back to the Committee? Significant brownie points, I'd say. No?

Albeit, there would have been a little problem called a Nimitz who could gauge his sincerity, but, well, a certain author has a habit of throwing curves and fast balls, as all authors do.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by Randomiser   » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:02 pm

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TLB Yup,the best way to dodge a treason charge is to lead a successful revolution!

President Pritchard embodies the difference between being loyal to a nation and being loyal to its present government. She was always loyal to Haven the nation and its people. Indeed it was because she loved her nation and people that she was determined to see regime change, because that was for the good of the nation. Always in her opinion of course. Practically all governments are deeply uneasy about such people. Such authorities want to identify loyalty to the nation with loyalty to them, or at a minimum to the constitution they support. One can see why, every crackpot claims they know what's good for the country better than the government! However, the revolutionaries are occasionally right! As almost all of us believe Pritchard was.

Can we stretch this some and say Wu and Caslett were also doing their bit for regime change out of love for their original nation? There were lots of points where one could have made a very strong case that regime change in Haven was impossible without prior military defeat. :twisted:
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:21 pm

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Randomiser wrote: There were lots of points where one could have made a very strong case that regime change in Haven was impossible without prior military defeat. :twisted:

I thought Parnell's defeat actually came after the Committee of Public Safety's regime change. I remember the scene where Cordelia Ransom arrested him as he was contemplating the failure of his plans. He was not among the dead at the capitol, because he was off at Barnett preparing for the attack.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:54 pm

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tlb wrote:There is a difference between staying within the system and going outside to join an enemy.

kzt wrote:Being a notorious assassin isn’t what most people thing of as “working inside the systems”. 8-)

tlb wrote:That was during the Legislaturist days and is what got her the job under the Committee of Public Safety. I admit it is not what most people mean when they say working within the system; but she was working for change in the capitol city of Haven and facing the dangers that the system represented, both from the Legislaturist government and from the Committee of Public Safety.

I just noticed where this went off the rails: I originally stated that she was "staying within the system", not that she was "working inside the system". So my answer to KZT accepted his interpretation, when I should not have done so.

What I was trying to say was that she remained within the area controlled by the totalitarian system and this was in contrast to escaping outside to join the enemy. Which I tried to explain when I said that "she was working for change in the capitol city of Haven and facing the dangers that the system represented, both from the Legislaturist government and from the Committee of Public Safety".

Under the Committee of Public Safety she did work inside the system, but that is not correct with respect to the Legislaturists.

I am sorry that I was unclear in a response that was not completely faithful to the original statement (which may also have been subject to misinterpretation).
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by roseandheather   » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:08 pm

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runsforcelery wrote:
Uh, you might say that. Alfredo Wu is perhaps the person Tom Theisman most respects in the entire galaxy. He is, in fact, for various reasons (which I may get around to explaining to you down the road) the reason Theisman restored the Republic.

As for a pardon for Wu or Caslett, neither of them has any intention of putting Eloise in the position of having to issue any pardons. Which doesn't mean that they can never again visit Haven. They are now citizens of other, allied star nations, and in the treaty between the SKM and the RoH, Beth demanded (with a little nudge-nudge, wink-wink from Eloise) a clause recognizing the adopted citizenship of expatriates from either star nation to the other (there were none from the SKM to the PRH, of course) and granting them immunity for any "crimes" they might have against their previous star nation after they acquired their new citizenship. Please note how carefully that was phrased. It doesn't protect anyone from war crimes committed against another star nation (i.e., SS thugs who tortured or murdered POWs), nor does it protect them from prosecution for any crime they might have committed before swearing allegiance to another star nation. Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven.

Wu would be more at risk than Theisman under a persnickety reading of the law, and while he has immunity from prosecution, that is not the same as a pardon.


God, I love it when RFC comes along and more or less confirms my pet theories. It's so validating. :mrgreen:
~*~


I serve at the pleasure of President Pritchart.

Javier & Eloise
"You'll remember me when the west wind moves upon the fields of barley..."
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by kzt   » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:28 pm

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roseandheather wrote:God, I love it when RFC comes along and more or less confirms my pet theories. It's so validating. :mrgreen:

Everyone who has been paying attention over the books has certain crazy ideas that turn out to be right. And their pet hobby horses they keep pulling out to ride. ;)
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