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Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse

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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by TFLYTSNBN   » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:25 am

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runsforcelery wrote:


It was a typo, induced by my voice recognition software and not caught by my proofreading eye.

Very few Havenites think of Yu or Caslett as traitors, given the circumstances each faced. Of course some of the old school diehards do, but those are the same people who want to strangle the Pericard constitution and return to the "good old days." Nobody is too worried about their reaction, really, because if they're ever in a position to do anything about it, the Republic is going to have a lot worse problems about what to do about Yu and Caslett. Besides, Elizabeth couldn't not demand the clause without betraying people who had followed their consciences at the hardest moment in their lives. And Yu and Caslett are guilty of nothing Tom Theisman didn't also: rebellion against the Committee and helping to kill personnel who were "just following orders" from the folks who killed the Legislaturalists.



I suspect that Queen Elizebeth demanded that clause out of respect for Protector Benjamin. There is after all that matter of the Elysian Space Navy comprised of escapees from a PRH prison planet.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:02 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:


It was a typo, induced by my voice recognition software and not caught by my proofreading eye.

Very few Havenites think of Yu or Caslett as traitors, given the circumstances each faced. Of course some of the old school diehards do, but those are the same people who want to strangle the Pericard constitution and return to the "good old days." Nobody is too worried about their reaction, really, because if they're ever in a position to do anything about it, the Republic is going to have a lot worse problems about what to do about Yu and Caslett. Besides, Elizabeth couldn't not demand the clause without betraying people who had followed their consciences at the hardest moment in their lives. And Yu and Caslett are guilty of nothing Tom Theisman didn't also: rebellion against the Committee and helping to kill personnel who were "just following orders" from the folks who killed the Legislaturalists.



I suspect that Queen Elizebeth demanded that clause out of respect for Protector Benjamin. There is after all that matter of the Elysian Space Navy comprised of escapees from a PRH prison planet.


Not to mention the bloodbath when Havenite Marshalls attempt to arrest a certain fugitive from Justice (Fake hanging or no). The deaths of Marshall BATALLIONS would create quite a diplomatic faux pas.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:49 pm

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TFLYTSNBN wrote:
runsforcelery wrote:


It was a typo, induced by my voice recognition software and not caught by my proofreading eye.

Very few Havenites think of Yu or Caslett as traitors, given the circumstances each faced. Of course some of the old school diehards do, but those are the same people who want to strangle the Pericard constitution and return to the "good old days." Nobody is too worried about their reaction, really, because if they're ever in a position to do anything about it, the Republic is going to have a lot worse problems about what to do about Yu and Caslett. Besides, Elizabeth couldn't not demand the clause without betraying people who had followed their consciences at the hardest moment in their lives. And Yu and Caslett are guilty of nothing Tom Theisman didn't also: rebellion against the Committee and helping to kill personnel who were "just following orders" from the folks who killed the Legislaturalists.



I suspect that Queen Elizebeth demanded that clause out of respect for Protector Benjamin. There is after all that matter of the Elysian Space Navy comprised of escapees from a PRH prison planet.

I didn't consider the ESN personnel. Many of them were political prisoners, iinm, but to what extent? Would they need pardons or immunity from any kind of prosecution? As I recall, they were the victims.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:57 pm

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Cartref wrote:There could be another reason, not specifically covered by runsforcelery, and that could be simply that both Yu & Caslet are both extremely honourable men and only defected after considerable soul searching and much heartache.

Would that honour prevent them from renouncing their Grason citizenship with all its like backlash from the antagonistic Grayson Steadholders.

Plus what reason could they give to Grayson for do this, they are both well treated and highly respected in Grayson

Wives of their own on Grayson might make them feel really content. I always hoped the author would have a word with Cupid on their behalf. Defectors away from their homes and family "stranded" on an entirely new planet without love in their lives has to have its downsides. A wife -- or three -- and family, would go a long way to make them feel at home and really allow them to heal. In fact, they could find love right from Honor's Steading.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by Randomiser   » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:02 pm

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Hi RoseandHeather. I don't see where President Pritchard can get on her high horse about treason. AFAIR she started out as a illegal conspirator against the then legitimate government of Haven and maybe even as a terrorist against said legitimate government, and if she didn't conspire to overthrow the Committee she certainly threw in with those who did and accepted political office at their hands with no attempt to arrest them for their crimes against the previous government - like assassinating it's head. On several counts she is a traitor herself and against more than one government of Haven. Of course she was doing what was possible, honourable (to any right thinking person), and for the greater good of Haven, but then, Wu and Caslet would argue, so were they. (Least seems that way to me, but it's a long time since I read the relevant books.)
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:49 pm

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Randomiser wrote:Hi RoseandHeather. I don't see where President Pritchard can get on her high horse about treason. AFAIR she started out as a illegal conspirator against the then legitimate government of Haven and maybe even as a terrorist against said legitimate government, and if she didn't conspire to overthrow the Committee she certainly threw in with those who did and accepted political office at their hands with no attempt to arrest them for their crimes against the previous government - like assassinating it's head. On several counts she is a traitor herself and against more than one government of Haven. Of course she was doing what was possible, honourable (to any right thinking person), and for the greater good of Haven, but then, Wu and Caslet would argue, so were they. (Least seems that way to me, but it's a long time since I read the relevant books.)

There is a difference between staying within the system and going outside to join an enemy. I suspect that the problem is not her personal feelings, but attempting to respect the feelings of all those that also stayed within the system and had to face the dangers that represented.

There is also the attendant problem that there may be others who left Haven and could argue that they were just as deserving as Caslet and all. Simpler to just issue a blanket denial that to try to examine case by case. RFC pointed out that the agreement with Queen Elizabeth, meant that there was no legal jeopardy even without a pardon.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by kzt   » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:18 pm

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Being a notorious assassin isn’t what most people thing of as “working inside the systems”. 8-)
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:05 pm

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kzt wrote:Being a notorious assassin isn’t what most people thing of as “working inside the systems”. 8-)

That was during the Legislaturist days and is what got her the job under the Committee of Public Safety. I admit it is not what most people mean when they say working within the system; but she was working for change in the capitol city of Haven and facing the dangers that the system represented, both from the Legislaturist government and from the Committee of Public Safety.
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:45 am

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runsforcelery wrote:Technically, Caslett might be prosecuted for his actions in the Battle of Cerberus, but no one is interested in poking that can of worms. Besides, he only "went over to the other side" after discovering irrefutable evidence that the regime he had been serving had actually committed mass murder and treason against the one to which he had sworn his original oath as an officer. As such, it can very easily be argued that he never committed treason at all; his initial service with Manticore and then Grayson was the only way to fight the real traitors, and when the restored Republic resumed offensive operations he was a citizen of Grayson, not Haven. SNIP



Well? Y'all know I don't shy away from opening cans of worms. Would you believe its a humane effort to free the little enslaved earth dwellers? I didn't think so. But! I sure ain't interested in opening another can-o-worms so soon on the heels err lids of the one I opened in the ramblings thread. Nope, I'm tired of having to leave my house incognito. 8-) Especially considering the side of the worms in which I squirm, too. At the very least, I'll just hazard pointing out that this smells like the same uncovered manhole leading to the same sewer Beowulf stepped in. Two wrongs or two treasons, don't make a right. I know. I know. One has to consider the greater good. That's what they say, anyway.

I will also assume the fact that Caslet later assisted Harrington and her raggedy band of officers to escape Ransom's wrath was clearly more of the same. Simply in for a penny in for a pound.

At any rate—stuffing these worms back in that can. . . Ummph! Ummph! Ummph! GET BACK IN THERE! Sorry worms. STOP SQUIRMING!—what I'd like to tackle is what Honor did to Caslet after his assist with the pirates. Caslet thought Wayfarer was a freighter being "stuck up" by pirates. Then the stuck ups stuck up Caslet. Essentially Honor said, "Sorry, Warner, thanks for the help, but this is a stick up. Hands up!"

I shook my head at Honor on that one.
Dadgum girl. Did ya have ta?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Idle Questions From Reading the Honorverse
Post by tlb   » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:28 am

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roseandheather wrote:And as the President of the Republic - in many ways, I think, the true living symbol of that Republic, the embodiment of its rebirth and the hope of its future, their Lady Liberty made flesh - she cannot, under any circumstances, sanction what is in truth the definition of treason. It is absolutely impossible. She can't do it as the President of the Republic of Haven, and she can't do it as Eloise Pritchart. Because after everything she has given, everything she has lost, everything she has sacrificed in the crucible of Haven's rebirth, the very last thing in the universe she can do as Haven's guiding light is pardon the men who turned against her.


Randomiser wrote:Hi RoseandHeather. I don't see where President Pritchard can get on her high horse about treason. AFAIR she started out as a illegal conspirator against the then legitimate government of Haven and maybe even as a terrorist against said legitimate government, and if she didn't conspire to overthrow the Committee she certainly threw in with those who did and accepted political office at their hands with no attempt to arrest them for their crimes against the previous government - like assassinating it's head. On several counts she is a traitor herself and against more than one government of Haven.


On thinking more about this, I believe thar Randomiser has identfied a flaw in the reasoning by Roseandheather.

Treason is generally defined as being disloyal to one's country, especially by helping its enemies in time of war or by trying to overthrow its government. I think this is imprecise; it would be better to say that it is being disloyal to the government of one's country, especially by helping its enemies in time of war or by trying to overthrow it. The point of the change is that if the government is destroyed or overthrown or forced to agree to peace, then the basis of treason disappears. As Radomiser says President Pritchard could have been caught and tried for treason by either the Legislaturists or the Committe of Public Safety; but now that she is head of the government that reinstated the constitution those charges have vanished. The same is true of Theisman and by extension Caslet and Yu. That does not mean that Caslet and Yu are reinstated, as they can still be excluded by the new government which can argue that they gave up their citizenship.

Consider the American Revolution, while it was happening the members of the Continental Congress and its army were definitely treasonous. The Treaty of Paris of 1783, negotiated between the United States and Great Britain, ended the revolutionary war and recognized American independence. The Continental Congress named a five-member commission to negotiate a treaty: John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay, Thomas Jefferson, and Henry Laurens. Laurens, however, was captured by a British warship and held in the Tower of London until the end of the war, and Jefferson did not leave the United States in time to take part in the negotiations. The preliminary articles of peace were signed by Adams, Franklin, Jay, and Henry Laurens for the United States and Richard Oswald for Great Britain on November 30, 1782. Notice that Henry Laurens, held by the British as a rebel, was released by them to sign the treaty. The treaty specified that the States were free and independent and required that there not be reprisals against those subjects that had remained loyal to the crown. Of all those involved, only one man is still considered a traitor: Benedict Arnold, whose treason failed.

Consider the Civil War, because of the terms of surrender it was never legally determined that an act of treason took place. The trial of Jefferson Davis might have settled the legal status, but President Andrew Johnson issued a Christmas Day amnesty and pardon that removed the basis for a trial. Davis's lawyers intended to argue the he was a citizen of Mississippi and when it seceded then he ceased to be a citizen of the United States.
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