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Hybrid missile/Graser Torp

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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 7:10 am

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cthia wrote:
This gives me an opportunity to ask about something. In the early development of pods, they were tractored to the ship in ungainly masses, and were susceptible to proximity kills. Are the pods from podlayers susceptible to proximity kills? Certainly seems so, in the heat of battle. There's got to be some measure of time between deployment and launch. Of course, there's this recurrent theme about me not getting memos. :cry:


Yeah, each salvo of pods is susceptible to proximity hits after it has been launched. If you notice, the big first salvo is from multiple pod launches, and each salvo after the first is usually only 1-2 pod launches. The proximity thing has not been discussed much lately.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:44 am

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Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
This gives me an opportunity to ask about something. In the early development of pods, they were tractored to the ship in ungainly masses, and were susceptible to proximity kills. Are the pods from podlayers susceptible to proximity kills? Certainly seems so, in the heat of battle. There's got to be some measure of time between deployment and launch. Of course, there's this recurrent theme about me not getting memos. :cry:


Yeah, each salvo of pods is susceptible to proximity hits after it has been launched. If you notice, the big first salvo is from multiple pod launches, and each salvo after the first is usually only 1-2 pod launches. The proximity thing has not been discussed much lately.

Susceptible after, or before? I'm suffering a disconnect.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:29 am

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cthia wrote:
Theemile wrote:
Yeah, each salvo of pods is susceptible to proximity hits after it has been launched. If you notice, the big first salvo is from multiple pod launches, and each salvo after the first is usually only 1-2 pod launches. The proximity thing has not been discussed much lately.

Susceptible after, or before? I'm suffering a disconnect.


When the pods are in the pod bays, they are safe. After... ehhhh...
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:52 am

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Theemile wrote:
Theemile wrote:
Yeah, each salvo of pods is susceptible to proximity hits after it has been launched. If you notice, the big first salvo is from multiple pod launches, and each salvo after the first is usually only 1-2 pod launches. The proximity thing has not been discussed much lately.
cthia wrote:Susceptible after, or before? I'm suffering a disconnect.


When the pods are in the pod bays, they are safe. After... ehhhh...

Or to phrase it another way the pods are vulnerable during the interval between when they're launched from the ship and when they've launched their missiles.

(Well the pod's circuitry might get fried by proximity nukes after their missiles have launched; but by then it doesn't really matter)

So for an alpha launch, the very first of a combat, you can stack many patterns of pods because even if the enemy fires first you expect to have plenty of time to launch before you's lose all those pods to their fire. But during an ongoing exchange of salvos you only have the interval between incoming salvos to roll pods and fire off their missiles - so normally you only do a single or double pattern [6 or 12 pods per SD(P)] depending on the interval between incoming fire.
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by cthia   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:16 am

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Theemile wrote:
Theemile wrote:
Yeah, each salvo of pods is susceptible to proximity hits after it has been launched. If you notice, the big first salvo is from multiple pod launches, and each salvo after the first is usually only 1-2 pod launches. The proximity thing has not been discussed much lately.
cthia wrote:Susceptible after, or before? I'm suffering a disconnect.


When the pods are in the pod bays, they are safe. After... ehhhh...

Jonathan_S wrote:Or to phrase it another way the pods are vulnerable during the interval between when they're launched from the ship and when they've launched their missiles.

(Well the pod's circuitry might get fried by proximity nukes after their missiles have launched; but by then it doesn't really matter)

So for an alpha launch, the very first of a combat, you can stack many patterns of pods because even if the enemy fires first you expect to have plenty of time to launch before you's lose all those pods to their fire. But during an ongoing exchange of salvos you only have the interval between incoming salvos to roll pods and fire off their missiles - so normally you only do a single or double pattern [6 or 12 pods per SD(P)] depending on the interval between incoming fire.

Got it. There are two different uses of "launch."

Plenty time against traditional enemy fire, but seriously vulnerable to a stealthy MA drone type launch? The kind of gotcha that killed Mycroft, putting that first really huge salvo at risk. But, if the enemy can get in that close, proximity kills may be the least of their worries.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:29 am

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cthia wrote:Got it. There are two different uses of "launch."

Plenty time against traditional enemy fire, but seriously vulnerable to a stealthy MA drone type launch? The kind of gotcha that killed Mycroft, putting that first really huge salvo at risk. But, if the enemy can get in that close, proximity kills may be the least of their worries.


Pods during a firefight are only going to be on tow for <30 seconds (for 3 rolls of pods) at a time, then they launch their missiles. Yes, you could maneuver a stealthy drone to attack a single ship's pods, but you would have a narrow window to act, and could only effect 1 or 2 ship's pods at anytime, and would essentially lose the drone with every attack. so even using 8 missiletoe drones (which the MA does not have), the best you could do take out one squadron's pods for 1 salvo.

The Graser Torp and Silver bullet only moves at ~200 Gs and uses a long duration graser, NOT a nuke. Being unable to maneuver with an SD, or expolde a nuke, it would be a poor weapon to use for this type of attack. It is best to be used against an unmoving, solitary target - like a large array, a space station, or a "parked" ship.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Kizarvexis   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:46 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:
Theemile wrote:
When the pods are in the pod bays, they are safe. After... ehhhh...

Or to phrase it another way the pods are vulnerable during the interval between when they're launched from the ship and when they've launched their missiles.

(Well the pod's circuitry might get fried by proximity nukes after their missiles have launched; but by then it doesn't really matter)

So for an alpha launch, the very first of a combat, you can stack many patterns of pods because even if the enemy fires first you expect to have plenty of time to launch before you's lose all those pods to their fire. But during an ongoing exchange of salvos you only have the interval between incoming salvos to roll pods and fire off their missiles - so normally you only do a single or double pattern [6 or 12 pods per SD(P)] depending on the interval between incoming fire.


So, if you have a squadron of 6 pod layers, do you fire all 6 in waves, or fire 5 in waves and have one continually launch spoiler proximity nukes?

The one firing spoilers, would launch a pod to a few pods at a time in sequence from salvos of pods to target proximity kills the other sides pods. A stream of pod missiles if you will. If you can keep a stream of missiles coming in for proximity kills, then you hurt the other sides ability to launch followup attacks. It would depend greatly on if a few pods can target the deployed pods without being shot down I think.

Yes, during the opening engagement, you would only have 5 ships launching salvos while the first salvos cross the gap, but once that happens, you can interdict the other sides followup attacks. Would also depend greatly on surviving the initial waves and that could be tricky depending on how big the initial launches are.
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by tlb   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:13 pm

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Theemile wrote:When the pods are in the pod bays, they are safe. After... ehhhh...

Jonathan_S wrote:Or to phrase it another way the pods are vulnerable during the interval between when they're launched from the ship and when they've launched their missiles.

(Well the pod's circuitry might get fried by proximity nukes after their missiles have launched; but by then it doesn't really matter)

So for an alpha launch, the very first of a combat, you can stack many patterns of pods because even if the enemy fires first you expect to have plenty of time to launch before you's lose all those pods to their fire. But during an ongoing exchange of salvos you only have the interval between incoming salvos to roll pods and fire off their missiles - so normally you only do a single or double pattern [6 or 12 pods per SD(P)] depending on the interval between incoming fire.

Kizarvexis wrote:So, if you have a squadron of 6 pod layers, do you fire all 6 in waves, or fire 5 in waves and have one continually launch spoiler proximity nukes?

The one firing spoilers, would launch a pod to a few pods at a time in sequence from salvos of pods to target proximity kills the other sides pods. A stream of pod missiles if you will. If you can keep a stream of missiles coming in for proximity kills, then you hurt the other sides ability to launch followup attacks. It would depend greatly on if a few pods can target the deployed pods without being shot down I think.

Yes, during the opening engagement, you would only have 5 ships launching salvos while the first salvos cross the gap, but once that happens, you can interdict the other sides followup attacks. Would also depend greatly on surviving the initial waves and that could be tricky depending on how big the initial launches are.

I believe you are overthinking it. In the opening salvo all ships fire at the enemy ships, because any pods on the other sides will be flushed before your missiles arrive.

Even in subsequent salvos, it is better to kill the ships that can launch pods than the pods themselves; although if pods were destroyed, then that would be a bonus. Also it is easier to defend against a stream of missiles from one ship than a salvo from all ships.

In the books, I can only remember a few instances of anti-pod fire. One was to fire an opening salvo at extreme range to force any tractored pods to be flushed. Another had LAC's come in under stealth to shoot at the towed pods with their grasers, before they could be used. The final instance was to use something like Mistletoe against system defense pods.
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:15 pm

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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Or to phrase it another way the pods are vulnerable during the interval between when they're launched from the ship and when they've launched their missiles.

(Well the pod's circuitry might get fried by proximity nukes after their missiles have launched; but by then it doesn't really matter)

So for an alpha launch, the very first of a combat, you can stack many patterns of pods because even if the enemy fires first you expect to have plenty of time to launch before you's lose all those pods to their fire. But during an ongoing exchange of salvos you only have the interval between incoming salvos to roll pods and fire off their missiles - so normally you only do a single or double pattern [6 or 12 pods per SD(P)] depending on the interval between incoming fire.

Got it. There are two different uses of "launch."

Plenty time against traditional enemy fire, but seriously vulnerable to a stealthy MA drone type launch? The kind of gotcha that killed Mycroft, putting that first really huge salvo at risk. But, if the enemy can get in that close, proximity kills may be the least of their worries.

Yep. And even as far back as 2nd Hancock we saw what happened (admittedly to towed pods - but the principle applies) when Manticore's surprise "super-LACs" got into weapons range undetected. Almost all those Peep pods got wiped out before they could be used.

Now against the MAlign you do risk grazer torps sneaking in and taking out your towed pods before the alpha launch. But given how stealthy their ships are you probably wouldn't be rolling pods early as your problem is figuring out there's a target out there in the first place. Fleets usually don't roll pods until they're tracking a target.

Also grazer torps have such low acceleration they'll have trouble getting into engagement range of an SD(P) squadron that's under way and rolling pods -- they'd have to come in from a nearly reciprocal course. Mycroft is just sitting there, where as an SD(P) loafing along at 300 gees is at least 50% quicker than as grazer torp (though I thought those torps were under 100g; which would make it at least 3x faster). If the torp doesn't start out fairly far ahead of the squadron they'll just leave it steadily losing ground in their wake (unless they reverse course and come back to it; but by then they've probably launched any alpha strike)
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Re: Hybrid missile/Graser Torp
Post by Theemile   » Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:48 pm

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Jonathan_S wrote:Yep. And even as far back as 2nd Hancock we saw what happened (admittedly to towed pods - but the principle applies) when Manticore's surprise "super-LACs" got into weapons range undetected. Almost all those Peep pods got wiped out before they could be used.

Now against the MAlign you do risk grazer torps sneaking in and taking out your towed pods before the alpha launch. But given how stealthy their ships are you probably wouldn't be rolling pods early as your problem is figuring out there's a target out there in the first place. Fleets usually don't roll pods until they're tracking a target.

Also grazer torps have such low acceleration they'll have trouble getting into engagement range of an SD(P) squadron that's under way and rolling pods -- they'd have to come in from a nearly reciprocal course. Mycroft is just sitting there, where as an SD(P) loafing along at 300 gees is at least 50% quicker than as grazer torp (though I thought those torps were under 100g; which would make it at least 3x faster). If the torp doesn't start out fairly far ahead of the squadron they'll just leave it steadily losing ground in their wake (unless they reverse course and come back to it; but by then they've probably launched any alpha strike)


The whole Alpha launch process has always had me scratching my head. You usually fire the alpha strike at range, meaning that the missiles have 3-9 minutes of run time on their drives, as does your opponent's missiles. The confusing part (for me) is we always see the subsequent salvos fired as if the opposition's fire is mere seconds out, instead of 5 minutes downrange.

Why not, after the Alpha launch, roll 10-12 patterns, fire, then repeat, until the opposition's alpha launch is in range to attack you? This way you get 2-4 Alpha launches, which are more likely to penetrate defenses than single or double salvos. The current behavior just seems like undue panicking.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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