Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 4 guests

Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther

Join us in talking discussing all things Honor, including (but not limited to) tactics, favorite characters, and book discussions.
Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by Theemile   » Thu May 02, 2019 1:28 pm

Theemile
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 3409
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: All over the Place - Now Serving Troy, Mi

DP82ABN wrote:In A Call To Vengeance Travis Long was discussing the IAN BB Vergeltung. "Her electronics were cutting edge. He hadn't personally examined her missiles, but they were listed as Starstorms, the same round the SLN had used as recently as twelve T-years ago".

This indicates that the IAN is vastly ahead of Manticore and even missiles and software 2 generations behind the Starstorms would be at or better than anything Mercenaries like the unlamented Volsung's would be able to get without direct transfers from Axelrod. As a professional mercenary himself, Emperor Gustav would know exactly what it would take to move Manticore's ships from mothballed/limited service to fully active service(other than crew). In fact, it would essentially cost him nothing as everything to maintain and repair a fleet had already been captured and at least some, if not most, was hauled away. Even for the IAN having 5 systems, they are not all hugely profitable systems, so the electronics and supplies captured at Walther would have been too usable and valuable to simply nuke. 9 freighters would have been able to each only carry a small part of their load as human prisoners as there simply was not enough life support for all of their capacity to be used for people. So why not load them up with anything and everything valuable?


I mentioned that same thing at the time the book came out - especially since several of the DDs were the same classes that Manticore fielded, and there were several portable shipyards at the station. Manticore should have claimed at least a ship or 2 as reparations for the initial strike.

I argrued that someone should have at least run through the warehouse grabbing ever damned "hex" in the facility for all the ballyhoo that was made about them in the earlier books. Not to mention as many missile and CMs as possible to replace those lost during the Battle of Manticore (and to fill the mags on the dozens of Manti ships which were never full.)

However, it was pointed out, rightfully so, that from the point of view of the Casey and the Andermani, they had missed the heavy units of the Volsungs, and should that heavy squadron return, the Andermani would have another serious fight on their hands, and they would be at the maneuver disadvantage at the heart of a grav well with a BB. Our protagonists had no idea if they missed a out system picket and if (or when) reinforcements would be returning. The Andermani and the Casey didn't know the full size of the Volsung fleet, only that the BCs and most of the CAs (which were observed at Manticore) were missing. They had no idea that the bulk of them were way over in Havenite space entering a trap under the guise of an upgrade.

It was also pointed out that this is the 1600s -the Casey is alone, 6 months away from a home port and at the end of it's logistical string. It's only a Light Cruiser, without gobs of extra crew to run prizes (who were already down for repairs for some reason) for 6 months.

For the Andermani, these ships where technologically a step (or 2) down. The Andermani had superior home built ships that had their own local supply line. Adding extra, foreign designs may be against their thinking at this time because it may cause unwanted supply and support issues.

As it sat, if they had waited only a couple hours, Linn's mop up force would have caught them at the base and attacked them to keep the knowledge of who hired the Volsungs from getting out. The Andermani made clear they planned to pull out quickly no matter what, if the Casey had stayed behind, it would have been exposed and vulnerable.

However, I still feel they should have jumped a handful of prizes to a nearby system and powered them down in an asteroid field and returned at a later date with crews to bring them home. If nothing else, the Manties should have insisted on a Freighter and fill it full of spares (Missiles, CMs, parts) or grab one of the collapsable shipyards and throw it in the frieghter. Or tow ships or shipyards to the edge of the system outside the hyperlimit and hide it there for a return expedition. Heck, just returning and stripping the magazines of the ships would have been worth the cost of the expedition.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
Top
Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by DP82ABN   » Thu May 02, 2019 6:51 pm

DP82ABN
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:15 pm

Theemile wrote:
DP82ABN wrote:In A Call To Vengeance Travis Long was discussing the IAN BB Vergeltung. "Her electronics were cutting edge. He hadn't personally examined her missiles, but they were listed as Starstorms, the same round the SLN had used as recently as twelve T-years ago".

This indicates that the IAN is vastly ahead of Manticore and even missiles and software 2 generations behind the Starstorms would be at or better than anything Mercenaries like the unlamented Volsung's would be able to get without direct transfers from Axelrod. As a professional mercenary himself, Emperor Gustav would know exactly what it would take to move Manticore's ships from mothballed/limited service to fully active service(other than crew). In fact, it would essentially cost him nothing as everything to maintain and repair a fleet had already been captured and at least some, if not most, was hauled away. Even for the IAN having 5 systems, they are not all hugely profitable systems, so the electronics and supplies captured at Walther would have been too usable and valuable to simply nuke. 9 freighters would have been able to each only carry a small part of their load as human prisoners as there simply was not enough life support for all of their capacity to be used for people. So why not load them up with anything and everything valuable?


I mentioned that same thing at the time the book came out - especially since several of the DDs were the same classes that Manticore fielded, and there were several portable shipyards at the station. Manticore should have claimed at least a ship or 2 as reparations for the initial strike.

I argrued that someone should have at least run through the warehouse grabbing ever damned "hex" in the facility for all the ballyhoo that was made about them in the earlier books. Not to mention as many missile and CMs as possible to replace those lost during the Battle of Manticore (and to fill the mags on the dozens of Manti ships which were never full.)

However, it was pointed out, rightfully so, that from the point of view of the Casey and the Andermani, they had missed the heavy units of the Volsungs, and should that heavy squadron return, the Andermani would have another serious fight on their hands, and they would be at the maneuver disadvantage at the heart of a grav well with a BB. Our protagonists had no idea if they missed a out system picket and if (or when) reinforcements would be returning. The Andermani and the Casey didn't know the full size of the Volsung fleet, only that the BCs and most of the CAs (which were observed at Manticore) were missing. They had no idea that the bulk of them were way over in Havenite space entering a trap under the guise of an upgrade.

It was also pointed out that this is the 1600s -the Casey is alone, 6 months away from a home port and at the end of it's logistical string. It's only a Light Cruiser, without gobs of extra crew to run prizes (who were already down for repairs for some reason) for 6 months.

For the Andermani, these ships where technologically a step (or 2) down. The Andermani had superior home built ships that had their own local supply line. Adding extra, foreign designs may be against their thinking at this time because it may cause unwanted supply and support issues.

As it sat, if they had waited only a couple hours, Linn's mop up force would have caught them at the base and attacked them to keep the knowledge of who hired the Volsungs from getting out. The Andermani made clear they planned to pull out quickly no matter what, if the Casey had stayed behind, it would have been exposed and vulnerable.

However, I still feel they should have jumped a handful of prizes to a nearby system and powered them down in an asteroid field and returned at a later date with crews to bring them home. If nothing else, the Manties should have insisted on a Freighter and fill it full of spares (Missiles, CMs, parts) or grab one of the collapsable shipyards and throw it in the frieghter. Or tow ships or shipyards to the edge of the system outside the hyperlimit and hide it there for a return expedition. Heck, just returning and stripping the magazines of the ships would have been worth the cost of the expedition.


Thanks for the reply. I believe they just fed you a line of bull though. They were in orbit FAR longer than a few hours. More likely at least a week to a month as most of the ground troops and dependents were planet side and shuttles were not fast or large. They would also have to configure the freighters to carry passengers in at least some of the cargo holds, etc. which would have taken extensive time. They would know that if the Volsung's did show up - there is no way 2 BC's and 6 CA's were going to come down the gravity well to face the IAN when they had Vergeltung and 2 BC's. It would also have been only hours before the IAN knew exactly what Gensonne had and likely where he went with it from the Volsung survivor's of the battle. Since most ships were built either in the League or to their plans, the captured ships would really only need software/electronic upgrades to be "modernized" as the technology was pretty static at that time. Nor would the Axelrod force have wanted to go toe to toe with 6 cruiser/destroyer range ships against the IAN either. There is no way their missiles would be that much more current or dangerous than what the IAN had to offset the ship differentials. Llyn sent out the messages for that attack with only the Volsung's light craft - and many of them damaged - as the targets. That is what worried him when he heard that Gensonne had another BC showing up, but there was nothing he could do.
Top
Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by DP82ABN   » Thu May 02, 2019 6:59 pm

DP82ABN
Lieutenant (Senior Grade)

Posts: 98
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 9:15 pm

The Volsung at Walther would only have had 2 CL's, 3 DD's, and 3 FF's, which 6 modern Cruiser/Destroyers of Axelrod's would have been able to handle easily as their software and hardware was several generations newer. The BC might have made a far closer fight, depending upon the tactics and what Axelrod's answer to Schmiede's missile platforms were.
Top
Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by Fox2!   » Fri May 03, 2019 10:34 pm

Fox2!
Captain of the List

Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:34 am
Location: Huntsville, AL

DP82ABN wrote:The Volsung at Walther would only have had 2 CL's, 3 DD's, and 3 FF's, which 6 modern Cruiser/Destroyers of Axelrod's would have been able to handle easily as their software and hardware was several generations newer. The BC might have made a far closer fight, depending upon the tactics and what Axelrod's answer to Schmiede's missile platforms were.


What would the Axelrod force have done if they had arrived before the Andies (and Casey) had left? Would they have taken 6 cruisers/DDs against a BB, a couple of BC and assorted CA/CL/DD/severely up-gunned FF?

They apparently didn't make any effort to hide their arrival in-system. Part of that may have been their expectation that all they were facing would be the dregs of the Volsung, many of which were in or waiting for dry-dock space for repairs. The largest mobile unit in-system would have been a CL.
Top
Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by Rincewind   » Sat May 04, 2019 12:06 pm

Rincewind
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:22 pm

cthia wrote:I yield to the fact that the IAN was stealing tech, and obviously pilfering it at will, it seems. But the fact that they had a successful program of espionage is besides the point regarding how well their tech stacks up. When it's headed at you, it doesn't matter where the R&D outfit is located as to where a comparable missile was actually born. Even the U.S. has had to fight against its own tech in many instances.

I'd say during OBS, the IAN may have had the upper hand.

When you are stealing tech, it allows you to spend time and resources on other things. It also bears the possibility that, as a result, the thief may inevitably have better tech, since he's sharing your knowledge with himself and mating it with his own. Rationalize what would happen if the union between Sonja and Shannon somehow only benefited the Peeps.


It does not necessarily mean that the IAN are stealing tech. Just knowing that something is possible is half the battle towards being able to duplicate it. Witness the example of both Grayson and Masada who, when they became aware of the hyperdrive, impeller drive and inertial compensators were able to duplicate them without anybody telling them how they worked:
This point is referenced in House of Steel the section on Grayson History, Rediscovery & Modern Warfare 1703 to 1750, the relevant section of which read;
New technologies, whose possibility had never occurred to any Grayson or Masadan, were revealed, and a period of frenetic R&D ensued, driven by the long-standing hostility between the two star systems. Although neither Grayson nor Masada could obtain more than bits and pieces from their occasional visitors, both were aware of the dire consequences of falling behind their enemies, and both introduced domestically engineered versions of the hyperdrive, impeller drive, and Warshawski sail in remarkably short order.

When countries have a powerful motivation to do so, they can duplicate or even come up with alternatives to new technology. Remember, the fundamental laws of physics apply to everybody across the universe, it is just in the application; (and having the relevant technologically capable industrial research base) where the differences appear.
Top
Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by Rincewind   » Sat May 04, 2019 12:13 pm

Rincewind
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 276
Joined: Sun Aug 23, 2015 12:22 pm

One of the things that has always struck me about the Andermanies in general; (and presumably Emperor Gustav Andermani I had it in spades) was a devotion to realpolitik. He is not likely to do something out of charity because he feels he owes them, he would only do it if it would benefit himself. Giving a potential competitor any assistance to help them would be unlikely because he is one who would take the longer view and would know he is storing up problems for future generations.
Top

Return to Honorverse