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Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther

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Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by DP82ABN   » Tue Apr 30, 2019 7:18 pm

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I was re-reading the series and I have to say that I could really see the Andermani giving Manticore some serious aid after Walther. I do believe Emperor Gustav would feel a major debt to Manticore for several reasons and I don't believe he likes to owe debts to anyone. The reasons for the debt would be 1) Casey finding the Volstung base, 2) Casey's plan for getting the Andermani squadron to close with the active Volstung ships without them scattering across the universe, 3) Casey's missile launch to take out the Schmiede missile launchers which made the victory FAR less costly, and 4) at a minimum the victory ended with the capture of a minimum of 9 freighters and at least 9 warships as well as a fully stocked shipyard/base. While the books did not say anything other than the freighter's were taken, I don't think even the Andermani would pass up 7 DD's and 2 Frigates as well as any active Volstung ships who struck their wedges. With the Vergeltung and the BC's I could easily see enough professional personnel to man the prizes and no one would even try to mess with them while in the company of the fleet. Which is something Casey lacked. I could see Casey loading what they could of any material which was in excess, such as new hexes and quads from the base before it was nuked, but that amount would be rather small. Now I don't see this aid coming in the shape of any modern ships, but I could easily see a freighter or two showing up with a bunch of electronic gear that Manticore desperately needs to fully re-activate their mothballed and fully fix their semi-active ships. I could also see Gustav sending some missiles and software that would be a generation or four behind their gear (which is almost current Solarian issue), but would be far more advanced than Manticore currently has. I could also see with the Andermani getting the same information from the Volstung mainframe being able to perhaps even ID Axelrod as the funder, even if they don't figure out why. If nothing else, Gustav has far more and better connections to the Solarian League and he might not like how Axelrod does business.

What does anyone else think?
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Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by Daryl   » Tue Apr 30, 2019 10:43 pm

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Are you sure about this?
I could also see Gustav sending some missiles and software that would be a generation or four behind their gear (which is almost current Solarian issue), but would be far more advanced than Manticore currently has.
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Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by ThisName1   » Tue Apr 30, 2019 11:58 pm

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Daryl wrote:Are you sure about this?
I could also see Gustav sending some missiles and software that would be a generation or four behind their gear (which is almost current Solarian issue), but would be far more advanced than Manticore currently has.


I haven't read the manticore ascendant books in over a year but if I'm not mistaken the andermani did have better stuff than manticore at the time.

As for Gustav just giving it without being asked? He's a mercenary turned king,if I were him I'd give nothing away for free if I could help it.
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Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by Robert_A_Woodward   » Wed May 01, 2019 12:08 am

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Daryl wrote:Are you sure about this?
I could also see Gustav sending some missiles and software that would be a generation or four behind their gear (which is almost current Solarian issue), but would be far more advanced than Manticore currently has.


"ThisName1" should have specified that he was referring to _A Call to Vengeance_ in the Manticore Ascendant series (it takes place a few centuries before Honor). Emperor Gustav I of the new Andermann empire probably did have close to current Solarian issue while the SKM Navy at the time was at least a century out of date.
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Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by tlb   » Wed May 01, 2019 8:17 am

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DP82ABN wrote:I could also see Gustav sending some missiles and software that would be a generation or four behind their gear (which is almost current Solarian issue), but would be far more advanced than Manticore currently has.

Daryl wrote:Are you sure about this?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:"ThisName1" should have specified that he was referring to _A Call to Vengeance_ in the Manticore Ascendant series (it takes place a few centuries before Honor). Emperor Gustav I of the new Andermann empire probably did have close to current Solarian issue while the SKM Navy at the time was at least a century out of date.

To be fair, it was clear that "DP82ABN" (not "ThisName1") had to be talking about Manticore Acendant, because there is no Walther incident (as far as I know) in Honor's time. Also in Honor's time, we do not believe that the Andermani have more advanced technology than Manticore. Wasn't the RMN at the SLN level, if not better, at the beginning of the Havenite War?
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Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by cthia   » Wed May 01, 2019 8:38 am

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tlb wrote:
DP82ABN wrote:I could also see Gustav sending some missiles and software that would be a generation or four behind their gear (which is almost current Solarian issue), but would be far more advanced than Manticore currently has.

Daryl wrote:Are you sure about this?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:"ThisName1" should have specified that he was referring to _A Call to Vengeance_ in the Manticore Ascendant series (it takes place a few centuries before Honor). Emperor Gustav I of the new Andermann empire probably did have close to current Solarian issue while the SKM Navy at the time was at least a century out of date.

To be fair, it was clear that "DP82ABN" (not "ThisName1") had to be talking about Manticore Acendant, because there is no Walther incident (as far as I know) in Honor's time. Also in Honor's time, we do not believe that the Andermani have more advanced technology than Manticore. Wasn't the RMN at the SLN level, if not better, at the beginning of the Havenite War?

Certain Andermani tech, at one point, may have been better, even in Honor's time. The RMN eclipsed them as a result of the lengthy war with Haven. Even after the lengthy war with Haven -- and infused with Grayson tech, increasing the overall lethality -- they were still somewhat on a par,* recalling a specific passage of woolgathering by Harrington while in Andermani space.

*The fiendish FTL tech stolen from the god Apollo, notwithstanding, of course.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by tlb   » Wed May 01, 2019 9:01 am

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DP82ABN wrote:I could also see Gustav sending some missiles and software that would be a generation or four behind their gear (which is almost current Solarian issue), but would be far more advanced than Manticore currently has.

Daryl wrote:Are you sure about this?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:"ThisName1" should have specified that he was referring to _A Call to Vengeance_ in the Manticore Ascendant series (it takes place a few centuries before Honor). Emperor Gustav I of the new Andermann empire probably did have close to current Solarian issue while the SKM Navy at the time was at least a century out of date.

tlb wrote:To be fair, it was clear that "DP82ABN" (not "ThisName1") had to be talking about Manticore Acendant, because there is no Walther incident (as far as I know) in Honor's time. Also in Honor's time, we do not believe that the Andermani have more advanced technology than Manticore. Wasn't the RMN at the SLN level, if not better, at the beginning of the Havenite War?

cthia wrote:Certain Andermani tech, at one point, may have been better, even in Honor's time. The RMN eclipsed them as a result of the lengthy war with Haven. Even after the lengthy war with Haven -- and infused with Grayson tech, increasing the overall lethality -- they were still somewhat on a par,* recalling a specific passage of woolgathering by Harrington while in Andermani space.

*The fiendish FTL tech stolen from the god Apollo, notwithstanding, of course.

The Andermani were stealing knowledge from Manticore, which indicates which way the advantage tips, but more importantly is this quote from the initial entry in the thread:
I could also see Gustav sending some missiles and software that would be a generation or four behind their gear (which is almost current Solarian issue), but would be far more advanced than Manticore currently has.

That certainly is NOT true during Honor's career.
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Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by cthia   » Wed May 01, 2019 9:17 am

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I yield to the fact that the IAN was stealing tech, and obviously pilfering it at will, it seems. But the fact that they had a successful program of espionage is besides the point regarding how well their tech stacks up. When it's headed at you, it doesn't matter where the R&D outfit is located as to where a comparable missile was actually born. Even the U.S. has had to fight against its own tech in many instances.

I'd say during OBS, the IAN may have had the upper hand.

When you are stealing tech, it allows you to spend time and resources on other things. It also bears the possibility that, as a result, the thief may inevitably have better tech, since he's sharing your knowledge with himself and mating it with his own. Rationalize what would happen if the union between Sonja and Shannon somehow only benefited the Peeps.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by tlb   » Wed May 01, 2019 11:08 am

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cthia wrote:I'd say during OBS, the IAN may have had the upper hand.

The earliest mention that I can find of Andermani technology is in Honor Among Enemies:
Chapter 10 wrote:The IAN was smaller than the RMN, but its hardware came closer than most to matching Manticore's, and she wished Duke Cromarty had managed to bring the Andies into the war.

Chapter 11 wrote:She knew from her intelligence briefings that the Seydlitz-class ships like Derfflinger were a half million tons smaller than the RMN's own Sphinx-class, which made them a tad over three-quarters of a million tons lighter than the newest Gryphon-class ships, but that still brought Rabenstrange's flagship in at well over seven million tons. She shared the double-ended, hammerhead hull of all impeller-drive warships, but she was a haze gray instead of the white both the RMN and PN favored, and instead of a hull number, her name was emblazoned just aft of her forward impeller ring in red-edged, golden letters at least five meters tall. Her armament was also arranged differently, the mounts segregated into a single, relatively light graser deck between two very heavy missile decks, and Honor pursed her lips in a silent whistle. Derfflinger was already smaller than an RMN SD, and the magazine capacity for that many tubes had obviously cut deep into mass which might have been used for energy weapons. But while the ship would be far weaker in energy-range combat than one of her Manticoran counterparts, she also carried half again the missile broadside of a Sphinx. Honor had known that from her briefings, but actually seeing it was still something of a shock. She could see several advantages to the armament mix, but Derfflinger would find herself in serious trouble if an enemy managed to close with her.
The ship drifted against the stars in her parking orbit, a mountain of alloy and armor jeweled with the green and white lights of a moored starship, and as Honor studied her, she suddenly realized why the IAN had accepted smaller SDs. Derfflinger's lower mass would let her pull a higher acceleration than a Gryphon, assuming equal compensator efficiency, and that liveliness was perfectly suited to the missile-heavy doctrine the IAN seemed to have adopted. Of course, she thought with a carefully hidden smile, the Andies might find that less effective against the RMN than they expected. Manticore's missile pods and improved inertial compensators would go a long way towards negating Derfflinger's advantages. An RMN SD could more than match her throw weight, at least in the opening broadside, and the Manticoran ship's better compensator would make her at least as maneuverable, despite Derfflinger's mass advantage.
On the other hand, she thought, suddenly losing any temptation to smile, their intelligence types were able to find out about the squadron. I wonder if they're working on getting hold of our compensator designs, as well? Now there's a happy thought!

Then in War Of Honor there is an indication that the Andermani has the improved compensator.

There are several mentions of the Andermani in OBS and HotQ, but not really about technology; unless you count how smooth an Andermani bus might be when setting down.
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Re: Emperor Gustav owes Manticore after Walther
Post by DP82ABN   » Wed May 01, 2019 6:20 pm

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In A Call To Vengeance Travis Long was discussing the IAN BB Vergeltung. "Her electronics were cutting edge. He hadn't personally examined her missiles, but they were listed as Starstorms, the same round the SLN had used as recently as twelve T-years ago".

This indicates that the IAN is vastly ahead of Manticore and even missiles and software 2 generations behind the Starstorms would be at or better than anything Mercenaries like the unlamented Volsung's would be able to get without direct transfers from Axelrod. As a professional mercenary himself, Emperor Gustav would know exactly what it would take to move Manticore's ships from mothballed/limited service to fully active service(other than crew). In fact, it would essentially cost him nothing as everything to maintain and repair a fleet had already been captured and at least some, if not most, was hauled away. Even for the IAN having 5 systems, they are not all hugely profitable systems, so the electronics and supplies captured at Walther would have been too usable and valuable to simply nuke. 9 freighters would have been able to each only carry a small part of their load as human prisoners as there simply was not enough life support for all of their capacity to be used for people. So why not load them up with anything and everything valuable?
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