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U.S. "Warships" in Mothballs

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Re: U.S. "Warships" in Mothballs
Post by Rincewind   » Sat May 04, 2019 1:15 pm

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Relax wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:Given a 5 or 6 years of wartime funding and priority and they could probably get much of the reserve in service. But what kind of a war gives you years to get your existing obsolescent ships into service? (And if you do have years then you've got time to build new ships -- ones that you know are up to your current specs)

Actually this is what happened to the USA in WWII. Had 3 years notice. Everyone knew war was inevitable in 1938. Japan Germany were attacking consolidating, expanding everywhere. Japan who in WWI was an ally was being sanctioned by the west and shunned since 1937. USA 2 ocean navy act went through in 1940 and had effectively been in full swing the 2 years before for design because they saw war with Japan as inevitable. The Washington/London naval treaties were being massively violated in 1938 and utterly vanished in 1939. So, when the 2 ocean navy act was passed, the long lead items were already DONE.

Sherman tank developed before war broke out.

Aircraft? P38, P43, Corsair were all developed with war on horizon. P38 you know about, developed before war came out as they saw range as a massive problem, P43 morphed into the P47 and the corsair failed for carrier trials in 1940 but was developed before WWII started(for USA). Fall back position? Wildcat.

Only thing in WWII that was developed after war broke out for the USA is the Manhattan project and the B29 which is frankly the same thing. I do not count the F6F Hellcat as it was just a giant modification to the Wildcat where the only difference that counted was engine/landing gear. Better ships/tanks/aircraft? Nope did not happen.

If you wish to look at the Brit position the development, or complete lack of development is stark. The number one and 2 R&D the UK managed was in Cryptography, RADAR. Both of which.... started BEFORE WWII kicked off but were barely there.
Brit tanks developed during? None to speak of and those that did showed up in 1946 like the USA's Patton and the USSR's(several different).
Brit aircraft developed from scratch during that saw significant action? Lancaster, Mosquito(my favorite along with the Hellcat)
Brit Naval ships developed during WWII? None

PS: No, the Gato USN class was not developed during WWII. It was a slight mod of existing submarines developed during 30s. Biggest difference; torpedoes that worked... :oops:


With regards to the British war effort that is definitely not true. With regards to various things developed during the Second World War; (and actually saw service during it or were being introduced into service by the end of it) there are:
1. British Army. The Churchill, Cromwell & Comet Tanks were all developed during World War 2 & saw service during it: (The Centurion was being introduced into service just as the War ended). Also, the 6 pounder and 17 pounder anti-tank guns were likewise developed during the war.
2. The Royal Navy. The Implacable-class Fleet Aircraft Carriers & Colossus-class Light Fleet Aircraft Carriers, the Battle-class Destroyer and the River-class, Loch-class, Bay-class and Castle-class escorts were all developed and brought into service during the war as was the A-class submarine just as the war ended.
3. The Royal Air Force. Whereas development & production of the Spitfire continued throughout the War the Hurricane was replaced in production by both the Typhoon & Tempest, development of which started after the war began. Furthermore the most revolutionary fighter introduced into service by the Allies, the Gloster Meteor, was likewise developed during the war.
As you can see, the British Industrial establishment did manage to design & produce new weapons & equipment; (and whilst it was under enemy air attack AND suffering from the effects of shortages of materials and labour due to the U-Boat campaign, something the much vaunted US Industrial establishment did not have to worry about). It might not have been as spectacular as some of the more well known equipment produced by the Americans or the Germans but it did the job! And in the end that was all that was required.
Next time you want to make criticisms or take cheap shots... GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!
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Re: U.S. "Warships" in Mothballs
Post by tlb   » Sat May 04, 2019 1:47 pm

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Let's not forget computing applied to code breaking: the Colossus was the first electric programmable computer, developed by Tommy Flowers, and was first demonstrated in December 1943. The Colossus was created to help the British code breakers read encrypted German messages.
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Re: U.S. "Warships" in Mothballs
Post by Castenea   » Sun May 05, 2019 5:29 am

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Rincewind wrote:As you can see, the British Industrial establishment did manage to design & produce new weapons & equipment; (and whilst it was under enemy air attack AND suffering from the effects of shortages of materials and labour due to the U-Boat campaign, something the much vaunted US Industrial establishment did not have to worry about). It might not have been as spectacular as some of the more well known equipment produced by the Americans or the Germans but it did the job! And in the end that was all that was required.
Next time you want to make criticisms or take cheap shots... GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

I think there was more prewar development than you are claiming for the Brits, but yes, they actually did get more material from the drawing board into action during the war than the US. Some of this was that the US did not enter the war until just over 2 years later, some of it was also due to US operational constraints.

A good example of both design constaints and priorities were the top end fighters. The US had sub types with greater production runs than entire Brit or German type production. This is due to the fact that those building the aircraft did not like doing a lot of small changes, there was a relatively long cycle for change to how it worked in the field, and the fact that all minor and almost all major repairs would have to be done with parts from the nearest depot. Also an example of priorities is that US fighters tended to have a slower turn and climb rates than Brit and German fighters, but longer range and higher dive rates. An interesting example is that in the Hazy center there is a FW-190 and P-47 across the aisle from each other. The FW-190 is significantly smaller than the P-47, and the Focke-Wolfe was one of the larger German fighters.
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Re: U.S. "Warships" in Mothballs
Post by kzt   » Sun May 05, 2019 11:34 am

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n the US there was a very powerful focus on large numbers of good enough weapons. Until LTG Lesley McNair got killed by the 8th Air Force during Cobra attempts to produce better AFVs or doctrine for their use was nearly impossible.
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Re: U.S. "Warships" in Mothballs
Post by Relax   » Mon May 06, 2019 5:35 am

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Rincewind wrote:With regards to the British war effort that is definitely not true. With regards to various things developed during the Second World War; (and actually saw service during it or were being introduced into service by the end of it) there are:
1. British Army. The Churchill, Cromwell & Comet Tanks were all developed during World War 2 & saw service during it: (The Centurion was being introduced into service just as the War ended). Also, the 6 pounder and 17 pounder anti-tank guns were likewise developed during the war.
2. The Royal Navy. The Implacable-class Fleet Aircraft Carriers & Colossus-class Light Fleet Aircraft Carriers, the Battle-class Destroyer and the River-class, Loch-class, Bay-class and Castle-class escorts were all developed and brought into service during the war as was the

As you can see, the British Industrial establishment... GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT!

Dude: did you notice all the stuff I did NOT include from the USA/Russia etc? I even explained as to why in subsequent post.... a dumbed down version or a slightly heavier version of the real deal does not count. (All the myriad versions of destroyer for example whom never fixed their prewar problems[Brits with back-to-back boilers] even though they are labeled new classes... well no, otherwise the arrangement would have changed eliminating this massive vulnerability) You will note the Daring class made after WWII fixed this glaring weakness.

So, I will admit my error on the Churchill and 17 pounder, the rest? Nah
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