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Reserve Fleet

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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by kzt   » Thu May 23, 2019 5:18 pm

kzt
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Do not underestimate the energy of a 500,000 ton tanker moving at 15 knots. It will just run over a ship of that size.
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by cthia   » Thu May 23, 2019 5:23 pm

cthia
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Jonathan_S wrote:
cthia wrote:It must be stated that even though a reserve fleet can become obsolete, it can never become totally useless if you have enough of them and can man them. Pair them with the advantages of the MWJ and superior tactical and strategic thinkers.

Quantity is its own quality, especially if you have the mindset of a gorilla with a huge vocabulary, who's more than willing to throw around big words and notions like Parthian Shot. Like it or no, the SL could have hotwired all of those obsolete ships in the reserve and headed directly to Manticore and chucked thousands of missiles at the planet. I thought that was one of the main reasons Honor trashed them. They weren't without a possible use.
Guess that depends on what you mean by totally useless. After all against unarmed civilians a Phalanx of Greek Hoplites is darned effective. But you'd need unimaginable numbers of them to threaten a modern military and logistically unsupportable numbers to have a good chance of running down and eliminating even a African militia. (And then there are paradigm shifts; how many of them would you need to threaten an aircraft carrier?)

How many USS Monitors, or HMS Victories would it take to run down and stop a modern oil tanker? Or could even a thousands of HMS Warrior (1860) successfully slug it out with Bismark or Tirpitz?

Okay, they may not be totally ineffective because you can still use them to beat up civilians - but they're effectively ineffective against any military.


However what I think your general point was, which is armed military vehicles / ships can have a very long tail of usefulness in secondary roles; especially if used en mass is true. Just not IMHO to the extreme you stated :D

But, would murderous bastards gone temporarily insane, really need such an unimaginable number of them to threaten a modern military's charge, the planet and infrastructure? With an obscene amount of chucked missiles? A crime of passion.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by tlb   » Thu May 23, 2019 5:35 pm

tlb
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kzt wrote:Do not underestimate the energy of a 500,000 ton tanker moving at 15 knots. It will just run over a ship of that size.

I do not believe that you can do a quick turn in an oil tanker, so I expect that both Victory (if there is a good wind) and the Monitor could avoid being run over; but the Monitor would probably be swamped by the wake. Both ships could rake the tanker's bridge, so the thickness of the hull is not material.
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu May 23, 2019 5:43 pm

Jonathan_S
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cthia wrote:
Jonathan_S wrote:After all against unarmed civilians a Phalanx of Greek Hoplites is darned effective. But you'd need unimaginable numbers of them to threaten a modern military and logistically unsupportable numbers to have a good chance of running down and eliminating even a African militia. (And then there are paradigm shifts; how many of them would you need to threaten an aircraft carrier?)

But, would murderous bastards gone temporarily insane, really need such an unimaginable number of them to threaten a modern military's charge, the planet and infrastructure? With an obscene amount of chucked missiles? A crime of passion.

Well if this was Star Trek and a few of these insane hoplites were beamed simultaneously next to every sensitive piece of infrastructure I guess they could do a lot of damage very quickly, before anybody could respond. Electrical generators don't appreciate sharp pointy electrically conductive objects being jammed into them. Neither do computer's and networking devices in data centers, phone switching rooms, electrical transformers, etc. OTOH buried oil pipelines and dams are going to ignore anything a hoplite can do in just an hour or two.

Not sure what you think they're going to do to the planet in a short time period - though I guess enough of them could do some ecological damage pretty quickly (chopping down forests or killing off all the animals they can reach) (Ok, if someone with advanced space ships used them as c-fractional bombardment missiles they'd do a number on the planet -- but no more so than any other similar size and density object)


But if they have to form up in a few spots and march to the infrastructure they want to destroy their low speed of advance is going to drastically limit the damage they can do before encountering and being destroyed by a modern military.
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Jonathan_S   » Thu May 23, 2019 5:50 pm

Jonathan_S
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tlb wrote:
kzt wrote:Do not underestimate the energy of a 500,000 ton tanker moving at 15 knots. It will just run over a ship of that size.

I do not believe that you can do a quick turn in an oil tanker, so I expect that both Victory (if there is a good wind) and the Monitor could avoid being run over; but the Monitor would probably be swamped by the wake. Both ships could rake the tanker's bridge, so the thickness of the hull is not material.

HMS Victory might carry light swivel guns, and certainly carries musket armed troops. So she could fire on the tankers bridge even though her main guns wouldn't have a prayer of angling high enough to hit it from within their effectively aimed range.

But USS Monitor doesn't appear to have much elevation possible on her guns either (that would require larger opening in the gunhouse armor -- and for no purpose given her intended combat role), and doesn't carry lighter weapons or naval infantry. I don't think she'd really be able to lob shot or shell high enough to hit a tanker's bridge...
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by tlb   » Thu May 23, 2019 7:20 pm

tlb
Commodore

Posts: 953
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:34 am

kzt wrote:Do not underestimate the energy of a 500,000 ton tanker moving at 15 knots. It will just run over a ship of that size.

tlb wrote:I do not believe that you can do a quick turn in an oil tanker, so I expect that both Victory (if there is a good wind) and the Monitor could avoid being run over; but the Monitor would probably be swamped by the wake. Both ships could rake the tanker's bridge, so the thickness of the hull is not material.

Jonathan_S wrote:HMS Victory might carry light swivel guns, and certainly carries musket armed troops. So she could fire on the tankers bridge even though her main guns wouldn't have a prayer of angling high enough to hit it from within their effectively aimed range.

But USS Monitor doesn't appear to have much elevation possible on her guns either (that would require larger opening in the gunhouse armor -- and for no purpose given her intended combat role), and doesn't carry lighter weapons or naval infantry. I don't think she'd really be able to lob shot or shell high enough to hit a tanker's bridge...

According to Wikipedia, the USS Monitor participated in the Battle of Drewry's Bluff. Although not able to elevate her guns enough from close range, the Monitor could shoot at the fort on top of the bluff (about 200 feet above the river) from longer range.

As for the HMS Victory, they just have to time the volley to the roll of the ship which will allow the main guns to shoot higher.
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Re: Reserve Fleet
Post by Jonathan_S   » Fri May 24, 2019 4:50 pm

Jonathan_S
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Posts: 5974
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Location: Virginia, USA

tlb wrote:According to Wikipedia, the USS Monitor participated in the Battle of Drewry's Bluff. Although not able to elevate her guns enough from close range, the Monitor could shoot at the fort on top of the bluff (about 200 feet above the river) from longer range.

As for the HMS Victory, they just have to time the volley to the roll of the ship which will allow the main guns to shoot higher.

Thanks. I stand (well; sit) corrected.
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