Light bulb Captured Solly fleet

Hutch wrote:
Yeah, and since a major part of the Barregos/Roczak stragety is to play "Good little Satraps" for FF/OFS until they are fully ready to execute the Sepoy Option, any attention from the SL/BF regarding prisoners would be...unwelcome.

Still, out of those 1.8M SLN personnel, there may be a few from the Maya Sector who might be supportive of the Sepoy Option--the problem is, deciding if they really are.

Maybe if there are only a few hundred, the treecats can help out (they can't process all 1.8M, of course, but 1,000-1,200 may be doable.

No need to attract attention 10,000 SLN personnel both NCM and Junior officers would likely not be noticed, take 100,000 or 500,000 and that is a different story but 5,10 or 15 thousand out of 1.8 million would not be that easy to spot.

As for reliability, I suspect that there could be a list of criteria that Maya would look in to that could point them towards the most likely to join them, Manticore helping them out with treecats becomes viable if the numbers are kept low enough. You don't have to ask 1.8 million SLN personnel if they want to defect, you can find the most likely to do so and then make the offers based on those prerequisite.

thinkstoomuch wrote:"stewart"]
-------------

The Legislatorist Havenites were acting much as the USA and USSR were during the Cold War -- offering a Sultan BC and older / serviceable DD's was much like the USA supplying F-5's and A-37's to 3rd World quasi-allies while the USSR supplied Mig-15's / -17's /-19's; serviceable and potent in the right arena, but no match for the USA / USSR front-line craft.

-- Stewart

In 1902 the Sultan and City (a very missile heavy design) classes were the latest and greatest.

So selling Japan a Aegis destroyer instead. Still a fairly valid analogy.


------------

Japan is a STRONG US Ally.
The comparison of Haven and Masada is better seen (as noted) to the US / USSR providing F-5's / A-37's (from the US) Mig-15's/Mig-17's / Mig-19's to 3rd World such as Costa Rica, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Venezuela, Bolivia.

Haven wanted them to have enough to be a local power but not be a problem when the PRH eventually expanded there.
They provided a Sultan BC when the Warlord BC was either in early production or on the design phase.

The opposite occurred when the US provided F-14's to the Shah's Iran; The Shah was overthrown, and much of the technology on the F-14 was compromised.

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:

thinkstoomuch wrote:"stewart"]
-------------

The Legislatorist Havenites were acting much as the USA and USSR were during the Cold War -- offering a Sultan BC and older / serviceable DD's was much like the USA supplying F-5's and A-37's to 3rd World quasi-allies while the USSR supplied Mig-15's / -17's /-19's; serviceable and potent in the right arena, but no match for the USA / USSR front-line craft.

-- Stewart

In 1902 the Sultan and City (a very missile heavy design) classes were the latest and greatest.

So selling Japan a Aegis destroyer instead. Still a fairly valid analogy.


------------

Japan is a STRONG US Ally.
The comparison of Haven and Masada is better seen (as noted) to the US / USSR providing F-5's / A-37's (from the US) Mig-15's/Mig-17's / Mig-19's to 3rd World such as Costa Rica, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Venezuela, Bolivia.

Haven wanted them to have enough to be a local power but not be a problem when the PRH eventually expanded there.
They provided a Sultan BC when the Warlord BC was either in early production or on the design phase.

The opposite occurred when the US provided F-14's to the Shah's Iran; The Shah was overthrown, and much of the technology on the F-14 was compromised.

-- Stewart

It depends on what is sent along. Also the countries/star-nations have to be able to maintain them or be able to afford to do so. For example look at Thailand they built a CVL/LHA that went into 'service' in 2005? and has had all kinds of engineering problems.

FYI Venezuela has F-16 but does not have long or medium range AAM like the sparrow only short range sidewinders.

Sigs wrote:..snip..
As an afterthought, there are also somewhere in the neighbourhood of 1,800,000 SLN servicemen and women in Manticorean custody, I'm sure if approached appropriately they can be helpful in reliving the manpower shortages for the Mayan fleet.

Joat42 wrote:And how do you suppose that would work out? There are numerous problems with that suggestion.

1. What official incentives does Manticore have for releasing the POWs to Maya?
2. What stops BF from just picking up the POWs at Maya after their release?
3. Why would the released POWs stay in Maya?
4. From Mayas perspective this will be VERY bad since the system will then be crawling with reporters and investigators from BF that need to debrief the POWs.

Then there is the minor problem of transporting the POWs, but I guess that can be accomplished by gutting the weaponry on a bunch of the captured SD's and send them on their merry way.

Sigs wrote:1) The incentive is that they can help out one of the SL sector governments gain independence by letting them select people for their fleet and marines. So instead of the RMN invading and conquering the sector it would already have a government in place sort of like the Kingdom of Meyers only larger. This benefits the GA by denying the resources and economy of the sector to the enemy.

That wont work. There has to be an official reason for Manticore to release POWs to specifically Maya that the Solarian League can accept diplomatically.

Sigs wrote:2) I am not taking about releasing 1.8 million SLN personnel to man the fleet, I am talking about Maya getting to pick and choose to offer a chance to those who meet certain criteria.

And how do you propose to vet the personnel? Especially under the auspicious eyes of any Deneb-accord inspectors without any information leaking???

Sigs wrote:3) They would stay in Maya because the people Maya would select would be those who have an axe to grind with the SLN or the SL in General, people from the Verge who may very well have little to no loyalty overall to the SLN. I suspect that from a pool of 1.8 million candidates they can safely convince a quarter of a percent to half a percent to join them, it wont be a huge increase but it would essentially double to Maya sector manpower.

The same problem crops up again. How do you vet them? Because if they fail the vetting process, what are you going to do with them then? Stick them in a dark hole and throw away the key?

Sigs wrote:4) Once again I am NOT talking about hundreds of thousands of POWs released, nor am I talking about advertising the release of the handful who accept that offer. For say 10,000 POW to disappear when there are roughly 1.8 million It is less than one percent of the total, even if the SLN cared by the time the discrepancy is noticed Maya would have a another year or two to deal with their manpower shortage.

As I said above, any inspectors making sure the Deneb-accords are followed will notice, the SLN will notice. You can't just vanish 10-15,000 POWs, especially since Manticore has always been scrupulous about their POWs. Imagine the political uproar in Manticore if it's discovered, and imagine the field day SLN propaganda would have or for that matter the Newsies in general. That's why I first pointed out that any release of POWs MUST have an official reason.

Sigs wrote:As for transport, again I am NOT talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of POWs being released, I am talking about maybe no more than 15,000 POWs being released to the care of Maya at least initially. Both Manticore and Haven have plenty of assault transports and one or two of the Atlas class ships can suffice to get any of the volunteers to the Maya Sector.

From your post is seemed you wanted to transport every POW to Maya which seemed a bit silly.

In the end, the problem is still that your idea wont work diplomatically without the risk of exposing what is happening in Maya, and AFAIK the GA has bigger issues to deal with right now than helping Maya with vetting and transporting POWs. Although, from the GAs viewpoint it would help if Barregos little scheme comes off without a hitch but I doubt that it really plays a big role in their planning.

Joat42 wrote:As I said above, any inspectors making sure the Deneb-accords are followed will notice, the SLN will notice. You can't just vanish 10-15,000 POWs, especially since Manticore has always been scrupulous about their POWs. Imagine the political uproar in Manticore if it's discovered, and imagine the field day SLN propaganda would have or for that matter the Newsies in general. That's why I first pointed out that any release of POWs MUST have an official reason.

From your post is seemed you wanted to transport every POW to Maya which seemed a bit silly.

In the end, the problem is still that your idea wont work diplomatically without the risk of exposing what is happening in Maya, and AFAIK the GA has bigger issues to deal with right now than helping Maya with vetting and transporting POWs. Although, from the GAs viewpoint it would help if Barregos little scheme comes off without a hitch but I doubt that it really plays a big role in their planning.

The whole point is that the Solarian League will NOT know about the release. Besides, the only thing that the SL is prepared to accept diplomatically is the unconditional surrender of Manticore and now Grayson and Haven. There is nothing they(the GA) can do to make anything short of that diplomatically acceptable to the SL.


As for vetting the POWs... how hard would it be to get access to the personnel files of the SLN by loyal elements of the SLN(Mayan governor and FF picket commander) even if it is through secret operation? Start with anyone that comes from Maya, then expand to the verge. Look for junior officers without family connection who can be likely to be denied progress within the SLN. Look for members who come from systems where the Frontier Fleet has brutalized the population etc... make a list and then progress from there. It does not need to be done in a day, week or a month but if they can guarantee a trickle of candidates then that could add up to some serious manpower gains. As for anyone who declines the offer, they are put in to solitary confinement or into confinement with other POWs who refused the choice and their standard of living is improved to make up for the solitary confinement. They would need to keep a lid on this for a year or two, at most three before Maya can go out in the open after that it would not matter what the SL thinks.

I am not talking about putting 10,000 or 15,000 SLN personnel in a mass grave, all I am saying is that if those members chose to volunteer for certain duties it would be acceptable. No one would force a POW to go anywhere, what they would essentially get is the choice to fight for a cause or remain a POW. Nothing that Manticore does with those POWs will make the slightest piece of difference, they could give each one a million dollars and a ticket home but in the end the SL and the Mandarins will turn it around on them. Manticore should not play to SL tune, it should do what gives it the best chance of long term survival and that is as much distraction as they can give the SL in order to focus their energies on the Alignment.


Their official reason could be consolidation of the POWs in a more secure or manageable location with could get them from the few if any existing inspectors and smuggle a few out.

Joat42 wrote:From your post is seemed you wanted to transport every POW to Maya which seemed a bit silly.

I don't know how much clearer I can get, do you want me to spell out the numbers?

Joat42 wrote:In the end, the problem is still that your idea wont work diplomatically without the risk of exposing what is happening in Maya, and AFAIK the GA has bigger issues to deal with right now than helping Maya with vetting and transporting POWs. Although, from the GAs viewpoint it would help if Barregos little scheme comes off without a hitch but I doubt that it really plays a big role in their planning.

Why would the US care what Nazi Germany though of them during WWII?

Manticore and the GA are fighting a war they did not start a war of Solarian aggression in spite of all attempts to avoid the war. The Solarian League will not react favourably to anything that the SEM does and the SEM does not need to care about the good will of the mandarins and the Solarian League. Tying your hands behind your back just to try to appease an entity that cannot be appeased unless you are groveling.

Sigs" [quote="Joat42 wrote:As I said above, any inspectors making sure the Deneb-accords are followed will notice, the SLN will notice. You can't just vanish 10-15,000 POWs, especially since Manticore has always been scrupulous about their POWs. Imagine the political uproar in Manticore if it's discovered, and imagine the field day SLN propaganda would have or for that matter the Newsies in general. That's why I first pointed out that any release of POWs MUST have an official reason.

From your post is seemed you wanted to transport every POW to Maya which seemed a bit silly.

In the end, the problem is still that your idea wont work diplomatically without the risk of exposing what is happening in Maya, and AFAIK the GA has bigger issues to deal with right now than helping Maya with vetting and transporting POWs. Although, from the GAs viewpoint it would help if Barregos little scheme comes off without a hitch but I doubt that it really plays a big role in their planning.

The whole point is that the Solarian League will NOT know about the release. Besides, the only thing that the SL is prepared to accept diplomatically is the unconditional surrender of Manticore and now Grayson and Haven. There is nothing they(the GA) can do to make anything short of that diplomatically acceptable to the SL.


As for vetting the POWs... how hard would it be to get access to the personnel files of the SLN by loyal elements of the SLN(Mayan governor and FF picket commander) even if it is through secret operation? Start with anyone that comes from Maya, then expand to the verge. Look for junior officers without family connection who can be likely to be denied progress within the SLN. Look for members who come from systems where the Frontier Fleet has brutalized the population etc... make a list and then progress from there. It does not need to be done in a day, week or a month but if they can guarantee a trickle of candidates then that could add up to some serious manpower gains. As for anyone who declines the offer, they are put in to solitary confinement or into confinement with other POWs who refused the choice and their standard of living is improved to make up for the solitary confinement. They would need to keep a lid on this for a year or two, at most three before Maya can go out in the open after that it would not matter what the SL thinks.

I am not talking about putting 10,000 or 15,000 SLN personnel in a mass grave, all I am saying is that if those members chose to volunteer for certain duties it would be acceptable. No one would force a POW to go anywhere, what they would essentially get is the choice to fight for a cause or remain a POW. Nothing that Manticore does with those POWs will make the slightest piece of difference, they could give each one a million dollars and a ticket home but in the end the SL and the Mandarins will turn it around on them. Manticore should not play to SL tune, it should do what gives it the best chance of long term survival and that is as much distraction as they can give the SL in order to focus their energies on the Alignment.


Their official reason could be consolidation of the POWs in a more secure or manageable location with could get them from the few if any existing inspectors and smuggle a few out.

Joat42 wrote:From your post is seemed you wanted to transport every POW to Maya which seemed a bit silly.

I don't know how much clearer I can get, do you want me to spell out the numbers?

Joat42 wrote:In the end, the problem is still that your idea wont work diplomatically without the risk of exposing what is happening in Maya, and AFAIK the GA has bigger issues to deal with right now than helping Maya with vetting and transporting POWs. Although, from the GAs viewpoint it would help if Barregos little scheme comes off without a hitch but I doubt that it really plays a big role in their planning.

Why would the US care what Nazi Germany though of them during WWII?

Manticore and the GA are fighting a war they did not start a war of Solarian aggression in spite of all attempts to avoid the war. The Solarian League will not react favorably to anything that the SEM does and the SEM does not need to care about the good will of the mandarins and the Solarian League. Tying your hands behind your back just to try to appease an entity that cannot be appeased unless you are groveling.[/quote]


FYI in most navies ships carry both personnel and medical records for the crew. with master record updated as necessary.

Look at that, we finally found a use for the captured SLN ships after all...

Sigs wrote:Look at that, we finally found a use for the captured SLN ships after all...

You mean apart from dropping them into a sun with the interstellar packrats all crowded aboard???

Don

Sigs wrote:Look at that, we finally found a use for the captured SLN ships after all...

Post #3 of this thread:

cthia wrote:Can't the GA use them for live-fire sims?

Weird Harold wrote:

Sigs wrote:Look at that, we finally found a use for the captured SLN ships after all...

Post #3 of this thread:

cthia wrote:Can't the GA use them for live-fire sims?

Oh come on! It'd be a welcomed relief from the normal practice of targeting asteroids. And tugs can set them in motion so knife range maneuvers of beam weapons can be practiced.

Save a few for assault marines live practice. SLN ships have peculiarities.