BEOWULF - THE KARMA SUITSYA

cthia wrote:

Annachie wrote:Hate to say it Cthia, but even the Mandarins know they were going way beyond the constitution when they launched Raging Justice.

What was the quote, "It means what we want it to mean"

I think I remember textev corroborating your statement. Yet they went ahead and did it anyway. I would wager that it was not unfamiliar territory to the Mandarins. Par for the course even. With the kind of power that they wield, it is much easier instead of asking permission before the fact, they ask for forgiveness after, for adding the lucrative fees of the MWJ to the Solarian economy.

Just so's we're on the same page, it wasn't way beyond their
[C c]onstitution.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:Cthia,
It has been kind of fun watching you twist tails, a bit, and I was going to go looking for infodumps and text to refute your arguments. But it has actually been a worthwhile exercise in some ways. Not in your roleplay--you get a bit excessive, which got responses, but not always to your point. But in looking at the Mandarins from the inside of their environment. Here are a few starting points.

1) The current Mandarins are in a political system that has existed for over 900 years--they didn't invent it, or attempt to change it. While they didn't have a Constitution anyone was looking at, they did operate based on traditions, customs, and expectations (including expectations of graft) that derived from that history (ok, a history of evading responsibility, and foiling attempts to rein in their abuse of power, but it's still their history)
2) They are not as incompetent as they appear, when faced with more familiar challenges--or they wouldn't have made it to the top of their political food chains.
3) Although it is more obvious in the "First Families of the Navy," the entire bureaucracy is riddled with nepotism. In that way, the agencies of the League are very like the Verge hereditary oligarchies they sneer at.
4)I think the only one of them portrayed as truly stupid enough to embrace the "treason" argument would have been McCartney; but in their reality NONE of them expected the actions Tsang took at Beowulf. What had been a political maneuver of manipulating the public debate(as a contingency to deflect post-operation criticism from League Members) blew up in their faces with the destruction of 11th Fleet; but their maneuver's consequences (Beowulf's secession) never even occurred to any of them as a remote possibility. ]It did occur to the Malign, which is why the clause was inserted in Tsang's orders.] And, at least so far, only Kolokoltsov is even seriously aware that they might not win.

Oh, and as an aside--the "marriage" argument doesn't work for me, as Beowulf has had the same government --popularly elected and supported--for a thousand years longer than the League has been avoiding having real elections. Beowulf was by far the senior partner. Or, if you must put it in terms of intimacy, she left an abusive, but adult, child.

Rob

You're doing it again Bob. The obsession with Beowulf is not my own.

"Solarian League, I am not your wife! You don't own me!"

"The hell I don't woman! We've been seeing each other for centuries! Do you have any idea what I've done for you! Forsaken for you! Spent on you! Jumped through hoops in order to protect you!"

"You did that out of obligation and the kindness of your heart!"

"Is that what you thought?"

"I have a bf you idiot. Been seeing him for years. His name is Manticore."

"Manticore!? The same jumped up arrogant Manticore that you know I've hated for centuries??!!"

"Yes! That Manticore! He's actually here in the system cavorting with me right now. Come out from behind the camera honey."

"Hi there! Nana nana na na! "

"See? And legally you don't have a leg to stand on. So put that in your pipe and smoke it!"

"I have some warships I can stand on and come and smoke you, you bitch!"

And that's one of the cautions my Driver's Ed teacher was warning us about. Some idiot driving on the highway alongside you for hours who think you're in a relationship because you waved at him and let him buy you coffee at a rest stop. Some people simply don't get that their idea of the relationship hasn't even an inkling of resemblance to the truth. And now he has road rage! Knock on wood if you've never been there!

And if he gets a sympathetic judge, "I have determined that the two of you were in a Common-law marriage, because you knew full-well what he expected out of you and the relationship. And you stayed anyway, reaping the benefits."

And of course, if she survives to see the divorce through, the husband may be awarded some of the lucrative WHJ fees. If he has proof that she'd been illegally cavorting, that figure will be high.

That's life handed to you by law of the human element.

Please keep in mind that I'm just the messenger. Don't shoot my Dispatch Boat.

I agree with you there. McCartney is the one who thinks they may have a legal leg to stand on as a loophole in the Constitution—de facto state of war, endangering the lives of Solarian citizens in their complicity with the enemy, malfeasance, and many more Solarian yatta yatta yattas.

But I think all of them feel Beowulf was morally treasonous to the implied relationship between people.*

"Regardless of what the legal letter of the law may say, you know what you did was wrong, as per our unspoken private relationship, you bitch!"

"I (League) may lose the case in court because we failed to get certain agreements written on paper. But you know what you did! And you know the implications of the mechanics of the relationship and what was unspoken between us that we morally agreed on. And I'm gonna getcha. Look out girl, I'm gonna getcha!"

They don't condone Tsang's actions, no. But that doesn't change the fact that Tsang wouldn't have had to make a stupid decision had it not been for Beowulf. And that Tsang was also looking at the bigger picture, the lives of Solarian citizens and not those of neobarbs. (Bracketing for a moment what we as readers actually knew was waiting on the other side of the junction.)

*The kind of indiscretion that evokes blind rage and 20M crimes of passion.

Evoking a reader's literary license to read between the lines of the 20M who are going to die on Beowulf, phillies.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I think the only one of them portrayed as truly stupid enough to embrace the "treason" argument would have been McCartney; but in their reality NONE of them expected the actions Tsang took at Beowulf. What had been a political maneuver of manipulating.

cthia wrote:I agree with you there. McCartney is the one who thinks they may have a legal leg to stand on as a loophole in the Constitution—de facto state of war, endangering the lives of Solarian citizens in their complicity with the enemy, malfeasance, and many more Solarian yatta yatta yattas.

But I think all of them feel Beowulf was morally treasonous to the implied relationship between people.*

"Regardless of what the legal letter of the law may say, you know what you did was wrong, as per our unspoken private relationship, you bitch!"

I (League) may lose the case in court because we failed to get certain agreements written on paper. But you know what you did! And you know the implications of the mechanics of the relationship and what was unspoken between us that we morally agreed on. And I'm gonna getcha. Look out girl, I'm gonna getcha!

They don't condone Tsang's actions, no. But that doesn't change the fact that Tsang wouldn't have had to make a stupid decision had it not been for Beowulf. And that Tsang was also looking at the bigger picture, the lives of Solarian citizens and not those of neobarbs. (Bracketing for a moment what we as readers actually knew was waiting on the other side of the junction.)

*The kind of indiscretion that evokes blind rage and 20M crimes of passion.

Evoking a reader's literary license to read between the lines of the 20M who are going to die on Beowulf, phillies.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I think the only one of them portrayed as truly stupid enough to embrace the "treason" argument would have been McCartney; but in their reality NONE of them expected the actions Tsang took at Beowulf. What had been a political maneuver of manipulating.

The discussion borders on the ridiculous. When in the course of human events, etc...

The League has been a corrupt disaster for a long time. The corruption was open, the disaster not as obvious.

When you discuss Beowulf's obligations, you dismiss its rights.

For a better analogy, why not a German during World War II who is ordered to kill a lot of helpless people. What should he do?

According to cthia, he should simply do it. That puts him, somehow, on the "side of the angels."

Refusal to do that is bad.

So Gandhi, who refused to pay accept British rule in India is the bad guy. And Martin Luther King who evil for opposing the state of Alabama. But Adolph Eichmann was a real good guy.

Remember the song played by the British at Yorktown? "The world turned upside down?"

cthia wrote:I agree with you there. McCartney is the one who thinks they may have a legal leg to stand on as a loophole in the Constitution—de facto state of war, endangering the lives of Solarian citizens in their complicity with the enemy, malfeasance, and many more Solarian yatta yatta yattas.

But I think all of them feel Beowulf was morally treasonous to the implied relationship between people.*

"Regardless of what the legal letter of the law may say, you know what you did was wrong, as per our unspoken private relationship, you bitch!"

I (League) may lose the case in court because we failed to get certain agreements written on paper. But you know what you did! And you know the implications of the mechanics of the relationship and what was unspoken between us that we morally agreed on. And I'm gonna getcha. Look out girl, I'm gonna getcha!

They don't condone Tsang's actions, no. But that doesn't change the fact that Tsang wouldn't have had to make a stupid decision had it not been for Beowulf. And that Tsang was also looking at the bigger picture, the lives of Solarian citizens and not those of neobarbs. (Bracketing for a moment what we as readers actually knew was waiting on the other side of the junction.)

*The kind of indiscretion that evokes blind rage and 20M crimes of passion.

Evoking a reader's literary license to read between the lines of the 20M who are going to die on Beowulf, phillies.

Armed Neo-Bob wrote:I think the only one of them portrayed as truly stupid enough to embrace the "treason" argument would have been McCartney; but in their reality NONE of them expected the actions Tsang took at Beowulf. What had been a political maneuver of manipulating.

ldwechsler wrote:The discussion borders on the ridiculous. When in the course of human events, etc...

The League has been a corrupt disaster for a long time. The corruption was open, the disaster not as obvious.

When you discuss Beowulf's obligations, you dismiss its rights.

For a better analogy, why not a German during World War II who is ordered to kill a lot of helpless people. What should he do?

According to cthia, he should simply do it. That puts him, somehow, on the "side of the angels."

Refusal to do that is bad.

So Gandhi, who refused to pay accept British rule in India is the bad guy. And Martin Luther King who evil for opposing the state of Alabama. But Adolph Eichmann was a real good guy.

Remember the song played by the British at Yorktown? "The world turned upside down?"

I'm not to blame for the ridiculous actions and thinking of a ridiculous regime! What do you expect to come from ridiculousness? Everything the League did was ridiculous. Not responding to the diplomatic note was not only really ridiculous but disrespectful to boot. At what point did you actually expect the ridonculously ridiculous to change?

There you go with that word "rights" again. As if a ridiculous regime who has never respected their own Constitution is suddenly going to consult with a moral compass to gauge the direction of any of Beowulf's constitutional rights.

In the Mandarins' eyes per Beowulf's transgressions, Beowulf only has a right to die. Hence, the 20M dead placed on Exhibit B — 'B' for, Beowulf!

Tsang was ORDERED to do what she was going in positioning herself and fleet to go through the wormhole. She had both her public (well, official, orders) and her secret orders.

She dragged her ass there a LONG time befor the "surprise" retribution of Raging Justice was supposed to happen. Nothing stealthy about Tsang and her task force, they just sailed on over in the direction of the Sigma Dranconis terminus (and bumped into the BSDF) because she was so carefull and quiet sunggleing up to the terminus in preparation for the little excursion through it with the little cloud 100 odd SLN SDs and only ended up parking far enough away that she had to send a couple of DDs as pickets because she didn't want to force the issue with BSDF before Fillerta had actualy engaged.

Really? Nobody (not terminus Astro Control or all the merchant shipping comming in from multiple directions in hyperspace to use or leave on various vectors after having come thought the terminus) would have seen 100+ SDs with their impellers up just parked in sensor range of the terminus?

Nasty surprise when 1st the Head of the BSDF shows up in her way- with what appear to be the entire compliment of BSDF SDs and tells her she can't order or force the SLN fleets through the Sigma Draconis Wormhole. SLN told Beowulf they were coming. Beowulf said that wasn't a good idea but the 800lb gorilla doesn't listen to much. Beowluf- in the person of their BSDF's commanding officer who is deployed with their fleet- essentilay says "over my dead body" so Tsang follows orders and after arguing a bit, withdraws enough to make it clear she is still there, her intentions haven't changed but she isn't going to drive through the BSDF until she gets word that Raging Justice is actualy engaged at Manticore.
That- probably- is because the whole Raging Justice thing is "secret" and if Fillerta isn't actually entering Manticore space and/or fighting RMN, then going through the wormhole with that fleet isn't justified nor could any of it be fluffed off as some diplomatic call or port visit by a SLN ship. 100 SD's isn't a visit.

So events unfold, the "News Service" DB pushes the line and runs to Tsang's pickett and she pondoursly hauls 100 SDs asses at the terminus.

Nasty surprise #2, BSDF is not only still there, they are prepared to fight (again) and this time although Tsang clearly thinks that Beowulf doesn't have a legal leg to stand on (and since Fillerta is actualy FIGHTING at Manticore she/the SLN thinks that the Constitution's requiremnts are covered because SLN forces are engaged. Interesting that you aren't at war but if YOU attack somebody, you can trump little things like the actual laws.
Nasty surpise #3. There is this whole crapload of RMN SDs and other things (like GhostRider drones) which were sitting out there in your way in stealth and they can read the hull numbers on your ships and you had NO CLUE they were there and suddenly your are not only outnumbered but it is quite possibly FINALLY truly clear to Tsang that IF she can get ships to and through the wormhole, the static defences on the other side are going to make confetti of what gets through. Manticore KNOWS you are coming, if they put that many SD's on the Beowulf side of the terminus, what in hell do they still have back home to deal with Fillerlta?

Then....the head of the SLN parkes Tsang's task force someplace (and effectivly out of communications with anybody else) and has her taken to the base around Mars where nobody can talk to her. Minor problem of the SECRET ORDERS she was working under when she did what she did and violated -in advance of an actual ordered- without delaration of war- attack on a star system. That's an actual set of advanced (months and months of advanced planning and logistics) planning to attack a Star Nation and not "just" two BF admirals possibly making possibly "questionable" field decisions because they stumbled into something way the hell out beyond any chain of command.
Tsang can't answer any questions and neither, apparently, can any of her task force people.

So the NAVY decided- months and months before Monica, Byng's murder of undefened DDs and Crandall's attack on the regional capital of a multisystem Star Nation, to go attack (with a measly 300+ of the first line SDs and their compleat screens and logistics train of the SLN) and subjugate the home system of said Star Nation.
And NOBODY in Government-not the Mandarins we seem to be told, with the possbile exception of the now deceased former head of the Navy, knew about it? It was all just an unfortunate string of unforseeable events but the Mantie's had it coming and they caused it by reacting badly to being attached. How neo-barb of them.

Really???

Un-planned? Just happened? Had to react fast to developing crisis with perhapas 20% of the SLN Wall-of-Battle that fortunatly was hanging about at some minor system for months and we were shipping them gobs of brand new design weapons from the furthest armpit of the known universe?

Dam, tell me another one and pass the Bourbon, its going to be a long week but I wouldn't miss this story for anything.
Am even going to pay money when it's published:)

Brigade XO wrote:Tsang was ORDERED to do what she was going in positioning herself and fleet to go through the wormhole. She had both her public (well, official, orders) and her secret orders.

She dragged her ass there a LONG time befor the "surprise" retribution of Raging Justice was supposed to happen. Nothing stealthy about Tsang and her task force, they just sailed on over in the direction of the Sigma Dranconis terminus (and bumped into the BSDF) because she was so carefull and quiet sunggleing up to the terminus in preparation for the little excursion through it with the little cloud 100 odd SLN SDs and only ended up parking far enough away that she had to send a couple of DDs as pickets because she didn't want to force the issue with BSDF before Fillerta had actualy engaged.

Really? Nobody (not terminus Astro Control or all the merchant shipping comming in from multiple directions in hyperspace to use or leave on various vectors after having come thought the terminus) would have seen 100+ SDs with their impellers up just parked in sensor range of the terminus?

Nasty surprise when 1st the Head of the BSDF shows up in her way- with what appear to be the entire compliment of BSDF SDs and tells her she can't order or force the SLN fleets through the Sigma Draconis Wormhole. SLN told Beowulf they were coming. Beowulf said that wasn't a good idea but the 800lb gorilla doesn't listen to much. Beowluf- in the person of their BSDF's commanding officer who is deployed with their fleet- essentilay says "over my dead body" so Tsang follows orders and after arguing a bit, withdraws enough to make it clear she is still there, her intentions haven't changed but she isn't going to drive through the BSDF until she gets word that Raging Justice is actualy engaged at Manticore.
That- probably- is because the whole Raging Justice thing is "secret" and if Fillerta isn't actually entering Manticore space and/or fighting RMN, then going through the wormhole with that fleet isn't justified nor could any of it be fluffed off as some diplomatic call or port visit by a SLN ship. 100 SD's isn't a visit.

So events unfold, the "News Service" DB pushes the line and runs to Tsang's pickett and she pondoursly hauls 100 SDs asses at the terminus.

Nasty surprise #2, BSDF is not only still there, they are prepared to fight (again) and this time although Tsang clearly thinks that Beowulf doesn't have a legal leg to stand on (and since Fillerta is actualy FIGHTING at Manticore she/the SLN thinks that the Constitution's requiremnts are covered because SLN forces are engaged. Interesting that you aren't at war but if YOU attack somebody, you can trump little things like the actual laws.
Nasty surpise #3. There is this whole crapload of RMN SDs and other things (like GhostRider drones) which were sitting out there in your way in stealth and they can read the hull numbers on your ships and you had NO CLUE they were there and suddenly your are not only outnumbered but it is quite possibly FINALLY truly clear to Tsang that IF she can get ships to and through the wormhole, the static defences on the other side are going to make confetti of what gets through. Manticore KNOWS you are coming, if they put that many SD's on the Beowulf side of the terminus, what in hell do they still have back home to deal with Fillerlta?

Then....the head of the SLN parkes Tsang's task force someplace (and effectivly out of communications with anybody else) and has her taken to the base around Mars where nobody can talk to her. Minor problem of the SECRET ORDERS she was working under when she did what she did and violated -in advance of an actual ordered- without delaration of war- attack on a star system. That's an actual set of advanced (months and months of advanced planning and logistics) planning to attack a Star Nation and not "just" two BF admirals possibly making possibly "questionable" field decisions because they stumbled into something way the hell out beyond any chain of command.
Tsang can't answer any questions and neither, apparently, can any of her task force people.

So the NAVY decided- months and months before Monica, Byng's murder of undefened DDs and Crandall's attack on the regional capital of a multisystem Star Nation, to go attack (with a measly 300+ of the first line SDs and their compleat screens and logistics train of the SLN) and subjugate the home system of said Star Nation.
And NOBODY in Government-not the Mandarins we seem to be told, with the possbile exception of the now deceased former head of the Navy, knew about it? It was all just an unfortunate string of unforseeable events but the Mantie's had it coming and they caused it by reacting badly to being attached. How neo-barb of them.

Really???

Un-planned? Just happened? Had to react fast to developing crisis with perhapas 20% of the SLN Wall-of-Battle that fortunatly was hanging about at some minor system for months and we were shipping them gobs of brand new design weapons from the furthest armpit of the known universe?

Dam, tell me another one and pass the Bourbon, its going to be a long week but I wouldn't miss this story for anything.
Am even going to pay money when it's published:)

Most of that only goes to show that Beowulf acted responsibly.There was no way that Sollie fleet was not known to the Manties. There were day trips back and forth between the planets.

It would not be difficult to know there was this big fleet in orbit.

All Manticore had to do was make sure the forts were waiting at the terminal along with some older SD(PP's. Or perhaps just a few modern ones to blow away the first ships coming through. Kill three out of the first four and get a surrender and the rest probably would start to do it as well.

Remember that any time a ship went through it cause a distortion. One ship would only cause a minor one. Note that even with small task forces, the Manty navy came out one by one.

We know that 17 at once would cancel out the junction for days. How about ten? At what point would there be an hour's break? Let's say it's six. So six ships go through and surrender. Then another six an hour later and they do it, etc.

Beowulf prevented the loss of another fleet.

ldwechsler wrote:
Remember the song played by the British at Yorktown? "The world turned upside down?"

As an aside: I don't think we did play that - it would have been an extremely insulting and pretty stupid tune to play when we were supposed to be surrendering.

Bluesqueak wrote:

ldwechsler wrote:
Remember the song played by the British at Yorktown? "The world turned upside down?"

As an aside: I don't think we did play that - it would have been an extremely insulting and pretty stupid tune to play when we were supposed to be surrendering.

I remember reading in what was supposedly a responsible history book that that what was played.

And it does seem appropriate. A British army surrendering to some colonials must have seemed like the world turning upside down. It wasn't supposed to happen!

Don

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n7axw wrote:

Bluesqueak wrote:
As an aside: I don't think we did play that - it would have been an extremely insulting and pretty stupid tune to play when we were supposed to be surrendering.

I remember reading in what was supposedly a responsible history book that that what was played.

And it does seem appropriate. A British army surrendering to some colonials must have seemed like the world turning upside down. It wasn't supposed to happen!

Don

-

We don't sing the lyrics when marching - the band just plays the tune. In Britain, The World Turned Upside Down uses the tune known as 'When the King Enjoys His Own Again.' It would be impossible to tell which song was meant.

I think the tune is now called something different in the US - but a British military band playing the tune 'When the King Enjoys His Own Again' as they marched out of Yorktown to surrender would have been a truly massive 'F--- you'. It sounds pretty unlikely.

Bluesqueak wrote:As an aside: I don't think we did play that - it would have been an extremely insulting and pretty stupid tune to play when we were supposed to be surrendering.

n7axw wrote:I remember reading in what was supposedly a responsible history book that that what was played.

And it does seem appropriate. A British army surrendering to some colonials must have seemed like the world turning upside down. It wasn't supposed to happen!

Don

Bluesqueak wrote:We don't sing the lyrics when marching - the band just plays the tune. In Britain, The World Turned Upside Down uses the tune known as 'When the King Enjoys His Own Again.' It would be impossible to tell which song was meant.

I think the tune is now called something different in the US - but a British military band playing the tune 'When the King Enjoys His Own Again' as they marched out of Yorktown to surrender would have been a truly massive 'F--- you'. It sounds pretty unlikely.

According to Wikipedia this is apocryphal:

American tradition has it that the British song played was "The World Turned Upside Down." However, there was no historical record of which song or songs were played by the band. The account of it being that particular song was added to the historical record almost a 100 years after the event.

I am not sure that playing that song would be considered an insult; I expect the Colonials would find it appropriate, as they were now on top.