Honorverse ramblings and musings

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Hutch's post in the "stupidity" thread reminded me of a question I'd been meaning to pose.

Byng was stupid to fire on those destroyers in their state on readiness.

But would it have been smarter to fire on the destroyers with wedges and sidewalls up and energy batteries run out? May have been more decent. But smarter?

How well could those three destroyers have fared in a straight-up fight with seventeen Battlecruisers?

That's really two questions.

1) Obviously if you're going to fight it's better, tactically, to do so when they're completely vulnerable. But there was no need to fight. At the ranges Byng was at he should have been able to directly monitor the state of the DDs' nodes - and since it takes a lot longer to bring the wedge online than it does to blow away the DDs he absolutely should have ordered them to stand down. He could always vaporize them later if they refused or showed signs of getting ready to run.
(Ok, if the DD were suicidal they could inflict more damage on the SLN units before dying; but that's the best they could hope for)


2) Now lets look at what might happen if you magically put the DDs and Byng's force in an arena, with everything the same except everyone had had full wedges, sidewalls, and point defense up and said "fight".
The 3 Rolands "were attacked without warning or challenge, without wedges and with no time to raise sidewalls, at pointblank range, by the massed energy fire of seventeen Solarian battlecruisers and eight destroyers."
At that range, IMHO, even sidewalls wouldn't save the DDs; not even momentarily - so they'd be just as dead. But if they'd known the fight was coming they'd likely have gotten off some grasers, so some of the SLN ships would be damaged as well.

More interestingly would be if the DDs were rolled behind their wedges. That would still be a very disadvantageous position for missile combat - deep, deep, inside the range of 17 BCs. For that matter the SLN BCs would presumably attempt to envelop the Rolands to prevent them from imposing the wedge against all of them.

And even with the Rolands' acceleration advantage they almost certainly couldn't prevent someone from generating angle to score an energy shot through a sidewall or stern wall.

However, until someone lines up an energy weapon shot, it'd just be missiles (admittedly a lot of missiles. And each of the 3 Rolands does have up to about twice the anti-missile active defenses of a pre-war Homer-class BC. That should let them survive for at least a couple minutes, even against the massed (but very low velocity) missile fire, and the maneuvering BCs. Those minutes should let them land some Mk16 counterfire. (Though even those missiles would be damned vulnerable since they're launching within CM range, and possibly within PDLC range!!)


Basically I'm of the opinion that given the numbers and the miniscule stand-off distance, that the Rolands are doomed no mater what. But exactly how quickly they are doomed could change based on the specific scenario.

You completely misunderstand me. *I make no assumptions of any sort. I simply wanted to know how well three Manty destroyers would fare in a stand up fight. I know there are several stories I'm yet to read, but of what I have read, I do not remember any skirmishes involving destroyers in a lead role. I am not even aware of a Manty destroyer's armament.

I suppose I do make the assumption that if Byng would have threatened to blow those destroyers away, for whatever reason when they first entered the system, that they would have either hypered back out or stood and fought.

I simply wanted to know how they'd fare if the latter. I don't think they have long-range missiles, but I'm not sure of it.

Rowbi wrote:In Shadow of Freedom 5 Roland Class destroyers take on 4 Indefatigable Class BC. It doesn't go well for the Sollies. As long as a Roland stays outside energy range it can destroy any Sollie ship up to a BC at will.

cthia wrote:I'll try again. As usual, what's in my brain, such as it is, and what gets typed may represent a huge chasm. I am usually in the lab posting while working.

Reading Hutch's original post, I wonder if it was stupid for Byng to have fired on destroyers not in a battle ready state, since the SLN had already badly underestimated RMN weaponry. How did he know how effective a fighting force destroyers were? Or the energy armament of a destroyer. Sure, they would not have survived even if in a battle ready state, but we are talking about RMN trained officers, and if they would have gotten off a few shots at energy range, perhaps Byng's ass could have been the single death. I'm not saying it would, I'm just saying Byng and I don't know. And I wanted to.

Also, my thoughts included the fact that everyone is picking on Byng for firing on helpless, defenseless destroyers with wedges and sidewalls down as if there would have been a different outcome had the wedges and sidewalls been up. So I posed the question, how much of a realistic chance would they have had if for whatever reason there had been a stand-up fight. BECAUSE - bracketing the "principle" of the thing, the concern should have been why fire on three destroyers? Period! Wedges and sidewalls up or no. They were just destroyers, three, what danger would they have posed even if sidewalls and wedges were up? That has never been said, iirc.

Moreover, truth be told, the men and women of those battlecruisers probably died instantly, saved from some of the horrendous type deaths.

AND, because I personally want to know how the destroyers would fare in a stand-up missile duel, using RMN taught tactics. Could they have at least damaged one battlecruiser causing casualties, and amongst those casualties there lie Byng. Dead.

.

cthia wrote:

Rowbi wrote:In Shadow of Freedom 5 Roland Class destroyers take on 4 Indefatigable Class BC. It doesn't go well for the Sollies. As long as a Roland stays outside energy range it can destroy any Sollie ship up to a BC at will.

Ah! OKAY! The plot thickens!

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Hutch's post in the "stupidity" thread reminded me of a question I'd been meaning to pose.

Byng was stupid to fire on those destroyers in their state on readiness.

But would it have been smarter to fire on the destroyers with wedges and sidewalls up and energy batteries run out? May have been more decent. But smarter?

How well could those three destroyers have fared in a straight-up fight with seventeen Battlecruisers?

That's really two questions.

1) Obviously if you're going to fight it's better, tactically, to do so when they're completely vulnerable. But there was no need to fight. At the ranges Byng was at he should have been able to directly monitor the state of the DDs' nodes - and since it takes a lot longer to bring the wedge online than it does to blow away the DDs he absolutely should have ordered them to stand down. He could always vaporize them later if they refused or showed signs of getting ready to run.
(Ok, if the DD were suicidal they could inflict more damage on the SLN units before dying; but that's the best they could hope for)


2) Now lets look at what might happen if you magically put the DDs and Byng's force in an arena, with everything the same except everyone had had full wedges, sidewalls, and point defense up and said "fight".
The 3 Rolands "were attacked without warning or challenge, without wedges and with no time to raise sidewalls, at pointblank range, by the massed energy fire of seventeen Solarian battlecruisers and eight destroyers."
At that range, IMHO, even sidewalls wouldn't save the DDs; not even momentarily - so they'd be just as dead. But if they'd known the fight was coming they'd likely have gotten off some grasers, so some of the SLN ships would be damaged as well.

More interestingly would be if the DDs were rolled behind their wedges. That would still be a very disadvantageous position for missile combat - deep, deep, inside the range of 17 BCs. For that matter the SLN BCs would presumably attempt to envelop the Rolands to prevent them from imposing the wedge against all of them.

And even with the Rolands' acceleration advantage they almost certainly couldn't prevent someone from generating angle to score an energy shot through a sidewall or stern wall.

However, until someone lines up an energy weapon shot, it'd just be missiles (admittedly a lot of missiles. And each of the 3 Rolands does have up to about twice the anti-missile active defenses of a pre-war Homer-class BC. That should let them survive for at least a couple minutes, even against the massed (but very low velocity) missile fire, and the maneuvering BCs. Those minutes should let them land some Mk16 counterfire. (Though even those missiles would be damned vulnerable since they're launching within CM range, and possibly within PDLC range!!)


Basically I'm of the opinion that given the numbers and the miniscule stand-off distance, that the Rolands are doomed no mater what. But exactly how quickly they are doomed could change based on the specific scenario.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:
I'll try again. As usual, what's in my brain, such as it is, and what gets typed may represent a huge chasm. I am usually in the lab posting while working.

Reading Hutch's original post, I wonder if it was stupid for Byng to have fired on destroyers not in a battle ready state, since the SLN had already badly underestimated RMN weaponry. How did he know how effective a fighting force destroyers were? Or the energy armament of a destroyer. Sure, they would not have survived even if in a battle ready state, but we are talking about RMN trained officers, and if they would have gotten off a few shots at energy range, perhaps Byng's ass could have been the single death. I'm not saying it would, I'm just saying Byng and I don't know. And I wanted to.

Also, my thoughts included the fact that everyone is picking on Byng for firing on helpless, defenseless destroyers with wedges and sidewalls down as if there would have been a different outcome had the wedges and sidewalls been up. So I posed the question, how much of a realistic chance would they have had if for whatever reason there had been a stand-up fight. BECAUSE - bracketing the "principle" of the thing, the concern should have been why fire on three destroyers? Period! Wedges and sidewalls up or no. They were just destroyers, three, what danger would they have posed even if sidewalls and wedges were up? That has never been said, iirc.

Moreover, truth be told, the men and women of those battlecruisers probably died instantly, saved from some of the horrendous type deaths.

AND, because I personally want to know how the destroyers would fare in a stand-up missile duel, using RMN taught tactics. Could they have at least damaged one battlecruiser causing casualties, and amongst those casualties there lie Byng. Dead.

.

You're correct that the result would not have been different for the destroyers if they had their wedges and sidewalls up. But that's beside the point.

The reason people are harping on the fact that Byng fired on ships with their wedges and sidewalls down is because it is against the rules of war to do so. If the destroyers had their wedges and sidewalls up and energy weapons up, it would mean that the destroyers were ready to fight; with they wedges and sidewalls down and weapons down, they are signaling their intention NOT to fight. In fact, they were obeying Byng's earlier demands when they went into orbit. So firing on them in this defenseless state is outright murder by interstellar law.

Could the destroyers have damaged the battlecruisers with their grasers before being obliterated? Yes, they could have damaged the hull a bit. Could they have caused significant casualties on the battlecruisers? No, I don't think so. Each Roland would only be able to aim 5 lasers (if on the broadside) or 2 grasers (on the chase mounts) at a time. The Solarian sidewalls and weapons would be far more powerful than the Manticoran destroyers. The lasers would cause hardly any damage at all. The maximum of 6 grasers would probably not cause many casualties, if any, and those would almost all be in the weapons bays.

n7axw wrote:If we are talking about a contest with missiles at the Roland's missile range, the Sollys get hurt badly by the Mark 16s. Move into the Sollys range, the Mark 16s still hurt the Sollys, but if they manage to pop a missile past the Roland's superior missile defenses, the Rolands get hurt, although it is questionable that the Sollys get anything through. At energy range, the Rolands are toast.

Don

cthia wrote:

n7axw wrote:If we are talking about a contest with missiles at the Roland's missile range, the Sollys get hurt badly by the Mark 16s. Move into the Sollys range, the Mark 16s still hurt the Sollys, but if they manage to pop a missile past the Roland's superior missile defenses, the Rolands get hurt, although it is questionable that the Sollys get anything through. At energy range, the Rolands are toast.

Don

Thanks for this post Don.

Again, it answers one of my own concerns for my own contentment. Everyone was harping on 'fired on destroyers with wedges and sidewalls down.' I understand it is against interstellar law and is murder. BUT. I wanted to know why/if seventeen battlecruisers would have needed to be afraid, or (w sh)ould have been afraid, of three destroyers even in a stand-up battle in a missile duel. Because that fear (from Byng's POV) could have translated to the situation that actually occurred, especially in the heat of the moment.

cthi wrote:I understand your angle and what you are saying. But you are still totally missing mine. I know that what Byng did was against the rules of war. I alluded to that when I said "less the 'principle' of the thing." But I'm trying to get inside of Byng's psyche, not my own; I'm trying to understand even possible subconscious reasons (legally or morally right or wrong) he may have acted as he did.

"This is war," is what someone blessed with so much 'morals, scruples and values,' as myself, has been told countless times by all of you. Essentially, I'm giving it back to you, from Byng's point of view!

And Remember, Byng was afraid that the RMN was guilty and was about to pull something else fishy when he said something like "not again" or "not this time." One thing good I can say about Byng is that he didn't want to lose a single SLN officer to a joke of a navy! And the atmosphere in SLN officer's minds (as I read) was that the RMN achieved what they did by some sort of sleight of hand or parlor trick. Byng was determined not to give the magicians that chance!

Also, Byng and most of the SLN officers could care less about the "rules of war!" In their minds, who the hell's going to enforce the rules besides the SLN? What Byng cared about was wasting RMN garbage w/o a chance of a single SLN officer dying. Let alone his own ass. Byng treated RMN ships just like I had hoped RMN ships would have treated Filareta when I had an exchange with RFC way back when ... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5069&p=134872&hilit=demon+Murphy#p134872 (seventh post down)
And my main point was that Byng felt that "if there is any chance that those bastards could kill a single man of mine, I'm destroying that chance along with all of them right fucking NOW!

And you and a few others have stated that there is a chance that Byng could have lost at least one ass, including his own. Byng didn't want that!

cthia wrote:I know that what Byng did was against the rules of war. I alluded to that when I said "less the 'principle' of the thing." But I'm trying to get inside of Byng's psyche, not my own; I'm trying to understand even possible subconscious reasons (legally or morally right or wrong) he may have acted as he did.