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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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kzt
Posts: 11360
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I took the FAA's ATC final screening test, in OKC. (This was like 15 years after I took the paper test, but then the FAA didn't do any hiring for years.) It starts out easy and becomes a complete nightmare. At the end I had midairs that I just couldn't avoid and just tried to keeps as many from colliding as possible. I was sure I failed, but I got a very high score and got offered the job. But by the time they got around to offering I'd already gotten a new job.
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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cthia
Posts: 14951
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Very impressive kzt. I doubt I could pass it before I go bonkers. You may have dodged a psychiatric bullet as it's one of the top 5 most stressful jobs, and life expectancy as an ATC is low. High turnover rate. My friend makes upwards of a six-figure salary, but his hair fades with each paycheck. Note: If you are into that sort of thing, the app from my previous post is worth it. Well worth it! Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense |
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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cthia
Posts: 14951
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Hutch's post in the "stupidity" thread reminded me of a question I'd been meaning to pose.
Byng was stupid to fire on those destroyers in their state on readiness. But would it have been smarter to fire on the destroyers with wedges and sidewalls up and energy batteries run out? May have been more decent. But smarter? How well could those three destroyers have fared in a straight-up fight with seventeen Battlecruisers? Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense |
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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SWM
Posts: 5928
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You make the assumption that those three destroyers would have put up their wedges and sidewalls. Byng didn't even try to communicate with the ships. Had he immediately demanded that the Manticoran ships remain powered down until someone determined what had happened, I imagine that they would have complied. Had they done otherwise, they would have been annihilated. Manticoran tech is good, but 3 Manticoran destroyers would not last more than a few seconds against Solarian battlecruisers inside graser range. --------------------------------------------
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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cthia
Posts: 14951
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You completely misunderstand me. *I make no assumptions of any sort. I simply wanted to know how well three Manty destroyers would fare in a stand up fight. I know there are several stories I'm yet to read, but of what I have read, I do not remember any skirmishes involving destroyers in a lead role. I am not even aware of a Manty destroyer's armament. I suppose I do make the assumption that if Byng would have threatened to blow those destroyers away, for whatever reason when they first entered the system, that they would have either hypered back out or stood and fought. I simply wanted to know how they'd fare if the latter. I don't think they have long-range missiles, but I'm not sure of it. Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense |
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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SWM
Posts: 5928
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They would die within seconds. The destroyers were within graser range of the battlecruisers. No missiles would be fired--it would be over before any missiles crossed the range. The destroyer beams would damage the surface of the battlecruisers; the battlecruiser beams would blast all the way through the destroyer and out the other side. And 17 Solarian battlecruisers have twenty or thirty times as many beam weapons as 3 Manticoran destroyers. --------------------------------------------
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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SWM
Posts: 5928
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Wait a minute, cthia, I see you've changed the question. Initially your question about how 3 Manty destroyers would fare against 17 Solly battlecruisers was in the context of what happened when Byng blew them away. In that case, as I said, the destroyers would have been destroyed within seconds even if the destroyers had their sidewalls up.
Now you are asking the question in the context of Byng threatening to destroy them as they are coming into the system. That is an entirely different question. First, under what circumstances are you suggesting that Byng would unilaterally threaten to start a war by destroying three ships peacefully entering a neutral system? After all, the Manticoran ships were carrying an ambassador to New Tuscany. If they Manty destroyers were threatened by the Sollies before they approached the planet, I don't think they would have tried to fight. They would probably have stood off and negotiated. Negotiation was the entire reason they were sending an Ambassador in the first place. --------------------------------------------
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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Jonathan_S
Posts: 9128
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That's really two questions. 1) Obviously if you're going to fight it's better, tactically, to do so when they're completely vulnerable. But there was no need to fight. At the ranges Byng was at he should have been able to directly monitor the state of the DDs' nodes - and since it takes a lot longer to bring the wedge online than it does to blow away the DDs he absolutely should have ordered them to stand down. He could always vaporize them later if they refused or showed signs of getting ready to run. (Ok, if the DD were suicidal they could inflict more damage on the SLN units before dying; but that's the best they could hope for) 2) Now lets look at what might happen if you magically put the DDs and Byng's force in an arena, with everything the same except everyone had had full wedges, sidewalls, and point defense up and said "fight". The 3 Rolands "were attacked without warning or challenge, without wedges and with no time to raise sidewalls, at pointblank range, by the massed energy fire of seventeen Solarian battlecruisers and eight destroyers." At that range, IMHO, even sidewalls wouldn't save the DDs; not even momentarily - so they'd be just as dead. But if they'd known the fight was coming they'd likely have gotten off some grasers, so some of the SLN ships would be damaged as well. More interestingly would be if the DDs were rolled behind their wedges. That would still be a very disadvantageous position for missile combat - deep, deep, inside the range of 17 BCs. For that matter the SLN BCs would presumably attempt to envelop the Rolands to prevent them from imposing the wedge against all of them. And even with the Rolands' acceleration advantage they almost certainly couldn't prevent someone from generating angle to score an energy shot through a sidewall or stern wall. However, until someone lines up an energy weapon shot, it'd just be missiles (admittedly a lot of missiles. And each of the 3 Rolands does have up to about twice the anti-missile active defenses of a pre-war Homer-class BC. That should let them survive for at least a couple minutes, even against the massed (but very low velocity) missile fire, and the maneuvering BCs. Those minutes should let them land some Mk16 counterfire. (Though even those missiles would be damned vulnerable since they're launching within CM range, and possibly within PDLC range!!) Basically I'm of the opinion that given the numbers and the miniscule stand-off distance, that the Rolands are doomed no mater what. But exactly how quickly they are doomed could change based on the specific scenario. |
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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cthia
Posts: 14951
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I'll try again. As usual, what's in my brain, such as it is, and what gets typed may represent a huge chasm. I am usually in the lab posting while working. Reading Hutch's original post, I wonder if it was stupid for Byng to have fired on destroyers not in a battle ready state, since the SLN had already badly underestimated RMN weaponry. How did he know how effective a fighting force destroyers were? Or the energy armament of a destroyer. Sure, they would not have survived even if in a battle ready state, but we are talking about RMN trained officers, and if they would have gotten off a few shots at energy range, perhaps Byng's ass could have been the single death. I'm not saying it would, I'm just saying Byng and I don't know. And I wanted to. Also, my thoughts included the fact that everyone is picking on Byng for firing on helpless, defenseless destroyers with wedges and sidewalls down as if there would have been a different outcome had the wedges and sidewalls been up. So I posed the question, how much of a realistic chance would they have had if for whatever reason there had been a stand-up fight. BECAUSE - bracketing the "principle" of the thing, the concern should have been why fire on three destroyers? Period! Wedges and sidewalls up or no. They were just destroyers, three, what danger would they have posed even if sidewalls and wedges were up? That has never been said, iirc. Moreover, truth be told, the men and women of those battlecruisers probably died instantly, saved from some of the horrendous type deaths. AND, because I personally want to know how the destroyers would fare in a stand-up missile duel, using RMN taught tactics. Could they have at least damaged one battlecruiser causing casualties, and amongst those casualties there lie Byng. Dead. . Last edited by cthia on Tue Feb 17, 2015 7:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense |
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Re: Honorverse ramblings and musings | |
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Rowbi
Posts: 21
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[/quote]
You completely misunderstand me. *I make no assumptions of any sort. I simply wanted to know how well three Manty destroyers would fare in a stand up fight. I know there are several stories I'm yet to read, but of what I have read, I do not remember any skirmishes involving destroyers in a lead role. I am not even aware of a Manty destroyer's armament. I suppose I do make the assumption that if Byng would have threatened to blow those destroyers away, for whatever reason when they first entered the system, that they would have either hypered back out or stood and fought. I simply wanted to know how they'd fare if the latter. I don't think they have long-range missiles, but I'm not sure of it.[/quote] In Shadow of Freedom 5 Roland Class destroyers take on 4 Indefatigable Class BC. It doesn't go well for the Sollies. As long as a Roland stays outside energy range it can destroy any Sollie ship up to a BC at will. |
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