Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:

Erewhon was particularly known for its complex honor code. At its heart was the inviolability of one's word. As a result, Erewhon had one of the lowest percentages of lawyers in the industrialized galaxy.
Erewhon traders and businesses were especially known for being shrewd negotiators.
Erewhon had a reputation of being a seedy and dangerous place to be, with an especially active criminal underworld. However, the Erewhonese were honorable people, operating on a developed version of the thieves' code of honor. (CS1)

Didn't we just argue Erewhon in this capacity? Why they "turned their backs on Manticore," and whether their actions were warranted? I remember opining that with Erewhon it became a matter of principle. Hey, I was right. They lived by an honor code. They would give you the boot polished by that same honor code. See?

Several of us told you that you were right. Crown of Slaves actually takes place at the time when Erewhon is considering what to do about the High Ridge government. You should definitely read it if you want more details.

Leading into the source of my main puzzlement...

The Republic of Erewhon was a single-system star nation with the planet Erewhon as its capital. It was allied with the Solarian League and, like Manticore, in possession of a wormhole junction, the Erewhon Wormhole Junction. Its terminus in the Terra Haute System was 25 light-years away from the Hennesy Terminus of the Manticore Wormhole Junction.

I had no idea Erewhon was originally allied with the League. Immediately, cogs begin overheating in my brain. Usually, if Manticore allies with someone who has a terminus, they seal the right to the terminus in case of war? I find it difficult to form my question because one leads to another. If the League was originally allied with Erewhon, why on Earth, or who on Earth, would allow such a strategic alliance to fail? Did Haven gain control, use, of the terminus when High Ridge sent Erewhon into their waiting arms? Does the terminus offer any strategic advantage against Manticore from the League, or from Haven?

Yes, the very first mentions of Erewhon in the first couple books tells us that Erewhon was affiliated with the Solarian League. They joined the Manticoran Alliance after the First War started. There is a Pearl on What Happened To Erewhon's League Membership: http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/180/1

No, Haven did not gain any kind of control over the Erewhon Junction when they signed the treaty with Erewhon. That treaty was very specifically a defensive treaty; if one party was attacked by a third party, the second party promised to come to the aid of the first party. That's all the treaty did. It did not make Haven and Erewhon permanent allies, and as far as we know did not give Haven any special access to the wormhole (unless the defensive agreement kicked in, presumably).

The Erewhon terminus is of only moderate strategic value for either Manticore or Haven against the other. Erewhon is almost as far from the central part of Haven as Manticore is. That's why we never saw any offensive actions starting from Erewhon. However, the Junction is very definitely strategically placed with regard to the Solarian League. One terminus leads to the Phoenix Cluster, a very short hop away from a terminus leading directly to Manticore. The other terminus of the Erewhon Junction leads to the planet Joshua in the Sasebo System--inside the Shell of the Solarian League. The route Manticore-Phoenix Cluster-Erewhon-Sasebo is one of the primary routes that gives Manticore access to three quarters of the Solarian League.

The Republic of Erewhon was once mentioned to be a member of the Solarian League. (HH1) This was later corrected, as Erewhon just had a military treaty with the League.[1]

The Solarian League had long courted Erewhon in an attempt to bring it (and its Junction) into the League.

A military treaty? I'm going to assume that they had access to the terminus sewn. Until they pooped whatever frequent League excrement to smell the deal. Evenso, I'd think the League would still feel it their right to the Erewhon terminus. Or at least a moral obligation to League members.

The League did not have any control of the wormhole. See the Pearl.

Though Erewhon was capable of producing small warships (such as destroyers), its Navy wasn't large enough to support the capacity for larger warships. Instead, it relied largely on Solarian League corporations such as Technodyne Industries of Yildun. While it was a member of the Manticoran Alliance, Erewhon relied upon other members for technology and refits, as well as the Royal Manitcoran Navy for general defense.

Its interests in becoming independent of such sources led to an arrangement with the Maya Sector to build larger ships, which justified developing its own capacity for building larger warships.

Well what was the initial appeal of Erewhon, beyond the junction? Were they actually building smaller ships for Manticore? I was under the impression that certain Manticoran technology had its roots on Erewhon.

Confused and bemused. As are the traits of a Johnny come lately.

Whatever you may like to add to my confusion will be fine and appreciated.

http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Erewhon

The initial appeal of Erewhon was that it was the second or third strongest economy in the Manticoran Alliance, including Manticore and Grayson. Grayson arguably surpassed Erehon eventually. Erewhon was also the closest Ally to Manticore, in terms of travel time. The path through the wormholes and the Phoenix Cluster was even faster than the trip between Manticore and Grayson. Erewhon did supply ships to the Alliance. They also supplied crews. Some Erewhonese officers attended the RMN Academy.

No, Manticoran technology does not have any roots in Erewhon. But as a full ally and active contributor to ship and missile construction, they had full access to Manticoran technology, up to the point that High Ridge got on his High Horse.

Jonathan_S wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi Jonathan S,

Minor nit here: There is textev to suggest that those keyhole platforms would be heavily defended against attack to avoid being take out like Honor took out Moriarity's platforms at Lovat.

That being said, against an opponent like the League you could emplace them at Beowulf without the defenses in the interest of getting the job done quickly.

Don

Sure they should, which is why the tactical section talking to the Mycroft nodes would normally be in a fort. And I completely agree it would be pretty stupid to put them anywhere undefended. But from a technical point of view you could; even though you shouldn't. (Because they have the example of the vulnerability of Moriarity's original stealthed but undefended central node; kill that and all the relays in the system are useless)

And then as Weird Harold said, we'd expect the Mycroft nodes themselves to retain at least the Keyhole II defenses (ECM, PDLCs, wedges, side and/or buckler walls)

(But I probably shouldn't have wandered off on that side tangent in the middle of my post; especially since I didn't fully explore it )

Yeah, Weird Harold's post was interesting and I hadn't thought of that. All I was really saying was that if needed, they could be put into place without defenses tempoarily in the interest of having the system emplaced and functional before a SLN attack could occur. Given the reach of Mycroft's Apollo pods, nothing in the SLN's current inventory can threaten the keyholes anyway.

However, I am not proposing that the keyholes should be left defenseless. After they are emplaced, all reasonable and prudent defenses should be emplaced as quickly as possible.

Don

n7axw wrote:Yeah, Weird Harold's post was interesting and I hadn't thought of that. ...

However, I am not proposing that the keyholes should be left defenseless. After they are emplaced, all reasonable and prudent defenses should be emplaced as quickly as possible.

You kind of missed the point that it would take longer to place a defenseless Keyhole than it would to place one with defenses intact -- because you would have to remove defensive features.

Beefing up the armoring/stealth/defenses of the support structure for a Keyhole II needed to turn it into a Mycroft platform can wait if it doesn't need to be built-in. But Keyhole was designed to defend its mothership and those defenses should be adequate for a much smaller control module if they're adequate for a BC or SD(P).

SWM wrote:The Erewhon terminus is of only moderate strategic value for either Manticore or Haven against the other. Erewhon is almost as far from the central part of Haven as Manticore is. That's why we never saw any offensive actions starting from Erewhon. However, the Junction is very definitely strategically placed with regard to the Solarian League. One terminus leads to the Phoenix Cluster, a very short hop away from a terminus leading directly to Manticore. The other terminus of the Erewhon Junction leads to the planet Joshua in the Sasebo System--inside the Shell of the Solarian League. The route Manticore-Phoenix Cluster-Erewhon-Sasebo is one of the primary routes that gives Manticore access to three quarters of the Solarian League.

Then the SLN could have used Erewhon to shorten travel time to Manticore?

Thanks for the response SWM. I certainly will place Crown of Slaves in the read queue. At least on the radar.

Did Manticore maintain use-option of the Erewhon terminus in war time?

cthia wrote:Then the SLN could have used Erewhon to shorten travel time to Manticore?

Thanks for the response SWM. I certainly will place Crown of Slaves in the read queue. At least on the radar.

Did Manticore maintain use-option of the Erewhon terminus in war time?

No, but during the People's Republic expansionist era, they weren't interested in being unprotected from the PN juggernaut, which is where they were a "handshake" ally to the SKM until the High Ridge government blew them off.

The Crown of Slaves/Torch of Freedom/ Cauldron of Ghosts chain of books is critical to figuring out how Meyers, Maya, Talbott, Erewhon, etc. figure into denying the SLN or Mesa any easy access back into the Haven Quadrant. Even the Torch wormhole starts to be less useful as an invasion point towards Manticore, Haven when/if Erewhon's naval forces come up to near GA- standards.

There's a bit more in CoG about the mutual defense stuff between Erewhon and Haven but saying more is a) a spoiler, and b) not fleshed out, that is, it's in RFC's tum-tee-tum-tum pocketses.

SharkHunter wrote:

cthia wrote:Then the SLN could have used Erewhon to shorten travel time to Manticore?

Thanks for the response SWM. I certainly will place Crown of Slaves in the read queue. At least on the radar.

Did Manticore maintain use-option of the Erewhon terminus in war time?

No, but during the People's Republic expansionist era, they weren't interested in being unprotected from the PN juggernaut, which is where they were a "handshake" ally to the SKM until the High Ridge government blew them off.

The Crown of Slaves/Torch of Freedom/ Cauldron of Ghosts chain of books is critical to figuring out how Meyers, Maya, Talbott, Erewhon, etc. figure into denying the SLN or Mesa any easy access back into the Haven Quadrant. Even the Torch wormhole starts to be less useful as an invasion point towards Manticore, Haven when/if Erewhon's naval forces come up to near GA- standards.

There's a bit more in CoG about the mutual defense stuff between Erewhon and Haven but saying more is a) a spoiler, and b) not fleshed out, that is, it's in RFC's tum-tee-tum-tum pocketses.

From Earth the fastest way to Manticore is Beowulf then take the wormhole through the Manticore Junction. (And of course we know that sending an unfriendly force through that wormhole is suicide)

It would take longer than that to fly from Sol to Joshua, jump to Erewhon, jump to Terra Haute, fly to Hennesey, then jump to Manticore. (And of course be equally suicidal)



Then, while the maps aren't exactly to scale, it looks like nearly a wash to head from Sol, away from Manticore, to Joshua, then take the hyper bridge to Erewhon, then through hyper to Manticore.
Sol-Joshua + Erewhon-Manticore look to be roughly the same combined length as a direct Sol-Manticore route.

And that's assuming that Erewhon even allowed the SLN through. But trying it without permission could be really bad for the SLN ships making the attempt, plus quite possibly drag Haven in sooner (through their mutual defense treaty with Erewhon.)

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:Yeah, Weird Harold's post was interesting and I hadn't thought of that. ...

However, I am not proposing that the keyholes should be left defenseless. After they are emplaced, all reasonable and prudent defenses should be emplaced as quickly as possible.

You kind of missed the point that it would take longer to place a defenseless Keyhole than it would to place one with defenses intact -- because you would have to remove defensive features.

Beefing up the armoring/stealth/defenses of the support structure for a Keyhole II needed to turn it into a Mycroft platform can wait if it doesn't need to be built-in. But Keyhole was designed to defend its mothership and those defenses should be adequate for a much smaller control module if they're adequate for a BC or SD(P).

No, Harold, I didn't miss it. Either the defenses are there as you describe and the point becomes whether or not they should be augmented or they are not there. I am not challenging you on this, by the way. I am saying that whatever turns out to be the case in this situation, the question of defenses should be given priority only after the Keyholes are emplaced in the interest of emplacing them as quickly as possible.

The point of Keyhole is to give the mother ship control channels by which missiles might be controlled, especially when the wedge is turned to the enemy. I would be interested in seeing textev that demonstrates your point about the keyholes having defenses of their own, apart from their function in providing control channels for MDMs and CM missiles. You could be right on this one. Rather than arguing, I am just trying to further my education.

Don

n7axw wrote:I would be interested in seeing textev that demonstrates your point about the keyholes having defenses of their own, apart from their function in providing control channels for MDMs and CM missiles. You could be right on this one. Rather than arguing, I am just trying to further my education.

see HOS for one example:

House of Steel
Nike Battlecruiser description wrote:Above all other design elements, the addition of the Mark 20 Keyhole platform to the Nike class allows it a greater level of tactical flexibility than any other warship currently in service. This costs a tremendous amount of mass and creates interesting problems (which some commentators describe as weaknesses) in the armor system. But those costs buy the ability to tether the platforms outside the wedge, which, coupled with the off-bore missile launchers, makes Nike the one of the first warships that can fight an entire engagement with her wedge to the enemy. The telemetry repeaters allow full control of both missiles and counter-missiles, and the platforms’ onboard point defenses thicken defensive fire. In addition, the Keyhole platform can act as a “handoff” relay, allowing a Nike to coordinate offensive and defensive missile control for another ship while both keep their wedges to the threat. This flexibility has resulted in vastly increased computational complexity in offensive and defensive engagement programming and helps to explain much of the class’ survivability.

Keyhole platforms don't mount CM launchers of their own, so that is a defense that has to be built-in to the support module of a Mycroft, but the PDLCs are part of the Kehole platform.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:I would be interested in seeing textev that demonstrates your point about the keyholes having defenses of their own, apart from their function in providing control channels for MDMs and CM missiles. You could be right on this one. Rather than arguing, I am just trying to further my education.

see HOS for one example:
[snipped]

Also, n7axw, there's an infodump on Keyhole Survivability

SharkHunter wrote: No, but during the People's Republic expansionist era, they weren't interested in being unprotected from the PN juggernaut, which is where they were a "handshake" ally to the SKM until the High Ridge government blew them off.

Nit--Erewhon was more than a "handshake" ally to Manticore during the First War. They were a full member of the Manticoran Alliance. There is textev of Erewhonese crews on Manticoran ships, Erewhonese ships joining Manticoran fleets, and Erewhonese officers attending the RMN Academy.