Honorverse ramblings and musings

cthia wrote:

Howard T. Map-addict wrote:How, when you write about Soap Operas in Space,
can you possibly omit "Another World?"

Besides the very name:

Don't you know that two or three actors trained by AW,
moved on to Star Trek: The Next Generation??

As for Awareness of other cultures,
AW was the Soap that sent a couple to Italy for their
wedding ... and conducted the service in Italian!

AW tested a teenager's claim to have spent years in
France, by having another teen question her in French!!
(Real French; I was so proud that I understood it.)

H. True Map-addict

Love this post Howard. But I just have to ask. How did the teenager fare during that "French inquisition?"

cthia wrote:Later conversation.

"Give it to Katyanna. She loves soap operas."

"You can't compare the Honorverse to soaps sis!"

"Sure I can. Manticore is "As The World Turns." Grayson is "The Guiding Light." Masada is "All My Children." The SLN are "General Hospital." The genetically engineered slaves are "The Bold and the Beautiful."

"You forgot the RHN."

"Ryan's Hope."

"Beowulf?"

"90210 and Peyton Place."

My sister. If it isn't John le Carre, Stephen Coonts, Michael Deaver, etc. Forget it. Sci-Fi isn't her cup of tea, or coffee.

Though I must admit. The soap comparisons are rather funny.

That would make the MAlign "Dark Shadows"??

dreamrider

dreamrider wrote:Has anyone ever raised the speculation as to whether spider drive (no capitalization needed) graser missiles have a prayer in the universe of attacking an impeller mobile enemy force which is not approaching the launch ship fairly directly?

Do they have the accel to even catch a maneuvering enemy force?

dreamrider

It's been discussed. I can't remember all the details, but I think concensus was that it would require enemy forces moving very slowly or not at all, or a very fortunate combination of position and target course. Graser torpedoes appear to share the slow acceleration of spider ships.

SWM wrote:

dreamrider wrote:Has anyone ever raised the speculation as to whether spider drive (no capitalization needed) graser missiles have a prayer in the universe of attacking an impeller mobile enemy force which is not approaching the launch ship fairly directly?

Do they have the accel to even catch a maneuvering enemy force?

dreamrider

It's been discussed. I can't remember all the details, but I think concensus was that it would require enemy forces moving very slowly or not at all, or a very fortunate combination of position and target course. Graser torpedoes appear to share the slow acceleration of spider ships.

Of course, if the launching ships are invisible and unsuspected, and the missiles are invisible and unsuspected, arranging a very fortunate combination of position and target course becomes a lot easier. You're doing it against no opposition. You can also spread out your space ninjas so that at least one of them is likely to be on a likely bearing; if they can fire and leave without effective retaliation, or with a shot that makes that retaliation still part of a clear net win, they needn't count on superior numbers on the spot for mutual protection or swamping the target's defenses.

If the space ninjas only sincerely suspected, your targets are likely to adopt random course variations in the general direction of where they are going to evade them as a matter of course. (Compare zig-zagging in the suspected presence of enemy subs in WWII.)

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

cthia wrote:Untapped Apollo Tactics
...
My niece has always toyed with possibilities herself. She says that with an Apollo system a fleet can execute its own pincer maneuver, simultaneously attacking from the fore and aft. No need for an extra fleet to hyper in to trap an enemy.

She also contends that the Apollo missile system can imitate mobile minefields. Analyzing a fleets attack vectors and sending "eight pack" salvos floating ballistically waiting for "suckers" as did Honor's Cerberus tactics. "Uncle, Nimitz can analyze SLN attack profiles."

She also alludes to the possibility that fleets can be steered to where you want them by activating coasters on vectors that may constitute stealthed ships.

She's a little 13-yr-old Norma Schwarzkopf.

Yes she is! and I'm sure Saganami Island will recruit her RSN. Or ought to, with the minor caveat that it's not PD1922 yet here on Terra.

She's absolutely correct on the pincer though; the only reason that Eighth fleet entered the inner system at Lovat was as bait, plus an serious "trash both fleets and infrastructure" demonstration that the new technology could not be stopped.

That said, the "mobile mine field" only works if you're being pursued on a guessable vector, a la First Hancock or (in a Short Victorious War), or like what HMS Ajax did to the pursuing ships at Solon, because once a missile's impeller is kicked on, it generates velocity that will quickly take it out of position, even though it is "floating ballistically" afterwards.

An example where it might work would be something like "drop all limpeted pods from multiple ships and tow them to each side of a base course where you can bait your enemy to "enter the valley of death". (imparting little or no momentum on the HonorVerse battle scale for MDMs)

Also keep in mind that even the AI in Apollo missiles isn't up to lightminute+ autonomous attacks. They still need guidance from ships or forts. And from AAC we know the Apollo control missile can only maintain that FTL link less than 8 lightminutes (Bom2) (though at least 3 lm (Lovat). (Well, unless you can seed the system with Mycroft style FTL fire control relays)

So an Apollo "minefield" would either need a controlling ship with Keyhole II somewhere "nearby", need a string of Mycroft style relays dropped, or need the enemy to wander past close enough (1/2 SDM range? Less?) that the onboard sensors could lock-on for a fully autonomous attack.


In addition to that, it's not clear whether there are angularity concerns with the FTL link. I tend to suspect (though I'm not aware of any text-ev either way) that it's mostly designed to work when pointing aft. That might be one more issue trying to really pincer a force with fire from two significantly different directions, both launched from the same spot. (Sweep out much ahead or behind the target and you [i]might[/u] turn enough to lose line of sight on your FTL transceivers. Certainly if you loop really far it'll start cutting into your terminal velocity - since you spend some of your acceleration budget moving off the straight-line path; then overcoming that off-target vector)


Still, Apollo is a hell of a multiplier and there probably are better uses for it than boring straight in on a least time path.

As this thread is for ramblings and musings, here is one that just wandered across my brain...such as it is and what there is of it....

Imagine if Honor had already left Trevor's Star just prior to the Havenite attack. Given what we know from textev, manticore would have lost all their available naval forces and, despite all those missile defense pods Honor came up with against Filareta, the RHN would have been able to establish general control of the systme (they might not have been able to 'conquer' the planets and wormhole, but they could definitely interdict traffic to/from the wormhole/hyper limit and launch long-distance missile attacks on Manty building slips and stations).

Let's also for a moment speculate that the Andies and Graysons' could not manage to put together the forces necessary to re-take the system (especially if Tourville was re-inforced) without imperiling their own systems.

So...what if Honor, finding out about this, instead of turning her ships back towards Manticore, instead took them to Haven, blew away the RHN Home Fleet, and captured the RH Capital?

And wouldn't that have been a rather screwy situation?

Yeah, I know, I can come up with at least three problems myself with that scenario, but it does tickle what little remains of my brain stem...and hopefully yours, too.

Hutch wrote:As this thread is for ramblings and musings, here is one that just wandered across my brain...such as it is and what there is of it....

Imagine if Honor had already left Trevor's Star just prior to the Havenite attack. Given what we know from textev, manticore would have lost all their available naval forces and, despite all those missile defense pods Honor came up with against Filareta, the RHN would have been able to establish general control of the systme (they might not have been able to 'conquer' the planets and wormhole, but they could definitely interdict traffic to/from the wormhole/hyper limit and launch long-distance missile attacks on Manty building slips and stations).

Let's also for a moment speculate that the Andies and Graysons' could not manage to put together the forces necessary to re-take the system (especially if Tourville was re-inforced) without imperiling their own systems.

So...what if Honor, finding out about this, instead of turning her ships back towards Manticore, instead took them to Haven, blew away the RHN Home Fleet, and captured the RH Capital?

And wouldn't that have been a rather screwy situation?

Yeah, I know, I can come up with at least three problems myself with that scenario, but it does tickle what little remains of my brain stem...and hopefully yours, too.

In that situation, Manticore would have surrendered, and Honor would not have gone berserk.

SWM wrote:

Hutch wrote:As this thread is for ramblings and musings, here is one that just wandered across my brain...such as it is and what there is of it....

Imagine if Honor had already left Trevor's Star just prior to the Havenite attack. Given what we know from textev, manticore would have lost all their available naval forces and, despite all those missile defense pods Honor came up with against Filareta, the RHN would have been able to establish general control of the systme (they might not have been able to 'conquer' the planets and wormhole, but they could definitely interdict traffic to/from the wormhole/hyper limit and launch long-distance missile attacks on Manty building slips and stations).

Let's also for a moment speculate that the Andies and Graysons' could not manage to put together the forces necessary to re-take the system (especially if Tourville was re-inforced) without imperiling their own systems.

So...what if Honor, finding out about this, instead of turning her ships back towards Manticore, instead took them to Haven, blew away the RHN Home Fleet, and captured the RH Capital?

And wouldn't that have been a rather screwy situation?

Yeah, I know, I can come up with at least three problems myself with that scenario, but it does tickle what little remains of my brain stem...and hopefully yours, too.

In that situation, Manticore would have surrendered, and Honor would not have gone berserk.

Elizabeth would have escaped on RMN-One and contact made with Honor. Haven would have surrendered as well, but Eloise would have been trapped.

Stalemate.

SharkHunter wrote:
--snipping--

cthia wrote:Untapped Apollo Tactics
...
My niece has always toyed with possibilities herself. She says that with an Apollo system a fleet can execute its own pincer maneuver, simultaneously attacking from the fore and aft. No need for an extra fleet to hyper in to trap an enemy.

She also contends that the Apollo missile system can imitate mobile minefields. Analyzing a fleets attack vectors and sending "eight pack" salvos floating ballistically waiting for "suckers" as did Honor's Cerberus tactics. "Uncle, Nimitz can analyze SLN attack profiles."

She also alludes to the possibility that fleets can be steered to where you want them by activating coasters on vectors that may constitute stealthed ships.

She's a little 13-yr-old Norma Schwarzkopf.

Yes she is! and I'm sure Saganami Island will recruit her RSN. Or ought to, with the minor caveat that it's not PD1922 yet here on Terra.

She's absolutely correct on the pincer though; the only reason that Eighth fleet entered the inner system at Lovat was as bait, plus an serious "trash both fleets and infrastructure" demonstration that the new technology could not be stopped.

That said, the "mobile mine field" only works if you're being pursued on a guessable vector, a la First Hancock or (in a Short Victorious War), or like what HMS Ajax did to the pursuing ships at Solon, because once a missile's impeller is kicked on, it generates velocity that will quickly take it out of position, even though it is "floating ballistically" afterwards.

An example where it might work would be something like "drop all limpeted pods from multiple ships and tow them to each side of a base course where you can bait your enemy to "enter the valley of death". (imparting little or no momentum on the HonorVerse battle scale for MDMs)

Johnathan_S wrote:Also keep in mind that even the AI in Apollo missiles isn't up to lightminute+ autonomous attacks. They still need guidance from ships or forts. And from AAC we know the Apollo control missile can only maintain that FTL link less than 8 lightminutes (Bom2) (though at least 3 lm (Lovat). (Well, unless you can seed the system with Mycroft style FTL fire control relays)

So an Apollo "minefield" would either need a controlling ship with Keyhole II somewhere "nearby", need a string of Mycroft style relays dropped, or need the enemy to wander past close enough (1/2 SDM range? Less?) that the onboard sensors could lock-on for a fully autonomous attack.


In addition to that, it's not clear whether there are angularity concerns with the FTL link. I tend to suspect (though I'm not aware of any text-ev either way) that it's mostly designed to work when pointing aft. That might be one more issue trying to really pincer a force with fire from two significantly different directions, both launched from the same spot. (Sweep out much ahead or behind the target and you [i]might[/u] turn enough to lose line of sight on your FTL transceivers. Certainly if you loop really far it'll start cutting into your terminal velocity - since you spend some of your acceleration budget moving off the straight-line path; then overcoming that off-target vector)


Still, Apollo is a hell of a multiplier and there probably are better uses for it than boring straight in on a least time path.

I've always thought that Mycroft-like platforms should be standard seed in the Manty home system just as the Hermes buoys. You're just not supposed to be able to come into someone's home or home system with the intent of raising hell. If that system is a super power, or 'Pay the Grim Reaper at the tollbooth.'

****** *

One thing I'm unclear on. There's the GA now. Right!

Once production of Apollo gets ramped up, of course the RHN and GSN navies will be supplied across the board??? But there are ignoramuses in all navies. I can't see the RMN giving Pavel Young Apollo. He'd shoot his eye out!

Seriously though, ships with that technology cannot be allowed to be captured. The neutralization of Apollo would be its only Achilles heel at the moment. Superior weapons systems are only as superior as their inferior link - the human morons that wield them.

cthia wrote:I've always thought that Mycroft-like platforms should be standard seed in the Manty home system just as the Hermes buoys. You're just not supposed to be able to come into someone's home or home system with the intent of raising hell. If that system is a super power, or 'Pay the Grim Reaper at the tollbooth.'

Manticore did have Mycroft-like platforms in the home system--they were called Forts. Now they are called Forts with Keyhole II.

cthia wrote:One thing I'm unclear on. There's the GA now. Right!

Once production of Apollo gets ramped up, of course the RHN and GSN navies will be supplied across the board??? But there are ignoramuses in all navies. I can't see the RMN giving Pavel Young Apollo. He'd shoot his eye out!

Seriously though, ships with that technology cannot be allowed to be captured. The neutralization of Apollo would be its only Achilles heel at the moment. Superior weapons systems are only as superior as their inferior link - the human morons that wield them.

Pavel Young was mysoginist, vain, cowardly, and many other unflattering adjectives. But he was not stupid. He did know how to run a ship, how to navigate, how to follow regulations, etc. He was not a moron.

But you are mistaken in thinking that they will be giving Apollo to everyone. They will be giving Apollo to people running podlayers. Not every captain is given a podlayer.

One final note: you may remember that Pavel Young is no longer in the Manticoran Navy (or even alive). In fact, he was removed after the very first battles of the war. At this point, Manticore and Haven have been at war for almost twenty years. I think you can be pretty confident that everyone who is not worthy of their ship commands has been eliminated from both navies--one way or another.