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Collin's assassination list

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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:20 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:You're going to want to skewer me for this, but I can accept even that. Here's the thing. I'd be just as disappointed as you about all of the downsides of it that you laid out. But if you step into the shoes of the family who knows the intimate history of the characters, characters who may be patterned after famous people in the family, might have to endure their characters exploited, criminalized, lacking morals and every other thing awful. Now, apply that to a Christian family, whose family had a tradition of using the same name for new births. A name that is now synonymous with evil.

What if David's daughter's daughter's daughter's daughters had to read about an Honor that is a harlot of the galaxy and worse than Lady Young?

Would that be David's great great great granddaughters? Hating their great great great grandfather for ever having created that character, who is on Holovid doing hideous things in the future. Dominating the Holovid. Primetime. The longest running Holovid ever.

I am trying to understand your argument. You say the author's family needs to have copyright control, because a precious family name might be applied to a vile character. Is this because the author did not like that person? Do you expect the family will use control to suppress the publication? What if the author hated the name and bequeathed the rights to a third party, so the family could not suppress the story? What do you do about an unrelated author that creates an evil character with that name?

This all seems so weak and farfetched. Names can fall out of favor for all sorts of reasons, the Arnold family is not likely to name a child Benedict. Adolf and Lucretia need to be retired from use. John Cleland's novel about Fanny Hill gave a whole new use of a word to the British public, too bad for any English family that had a custom of naming their daughters Frances.

If you retain control of your work, nobody can ever bastardize IT or your legacy.

Have you read some of DW's fanfic? Some of it is really good, but then, some of the other :o :oops: . . .

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:22 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:We haven't considered a heads of state assassination plan. Haven blundered when they placed Beth on the throne. But what if the MA dives into Manticoran politics very closely and pulls a Putin. Strike that last statement. If they CAN manage to put someone on the throne who IS weaker. Much weaker, that might be worth it as a prelude to coming out of the closet. There isn't anyone I know immediately in line who IS weaker, but consider the subtle uses of the nanite. It doesn't have to be used to kill. What if it could be used to control votes, essentially turn whoever replaces the assassinated Beth into another High Ridge.

The treecats wouldn't even be able to detect political suicide. If they can get Eloise and Beth and control their successor there goes the GA. Heck, kill Beth, control her successor and that could kill the GA.

Of course treecats can detect nanite control, no matter what it is used to do. Admittedly the treecat did not react to the fogged brain state of the perfume salesman, but that was just because he was not being forced to perform actions. Eventually forcing a vote would pass the threshold of detection.

And you're sure of that?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:45 pm

cthia
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tlb wrote:
cthia wrote:You're going to want to skewer me for this, but I can accept even that. Here's the thing. I'd be just as disappointed as you about all of the downsides of it that you laid out. But if you step into the shoes of the family who knows the intimate history of the characters, characters who may be patterned after famous people in the family, might have to endure their characters exploited, criminalized, lacking morals and every other thing awful. Now, apply that to a Christian family, whose family had a tradition of using the same name for new births. A name that is now synonymous with evil.

What if David's daughter's daughter's daughter's daughters had to read about an Honor that is a harlot of the galaxy and worse than Lady Young?

Would that be David's great great great granddaughters? Hating their great great great grandfather for ever having created that character, who is on Holovid doing hideous things in the future. Dominating the Holovid. Primetime. The longest running Holovid ever.

I am trying to understand your argument. You say the author's family needs to have copyright control, because a precious family name might be applied to a vile character. Is this because the author did not like that person? Do you expect the family will use control to suppress the publication? What if the author hated the name and bequeathed the rights to a third party, so the family could not suppress the story? What do you do about an unrelated author that creates an evil character with that name?

This all seems so weak and farfetched. Names can fall out of favor for all sorts of reasons, the Arnold family is not likely to name a child Benedict. Adolf and Lucretia need to be retired from use. John Cleland's novel about Fanny Hill gave a whole new use of a word to the British public, too bad for any English family that had a custom of naming their daughters Frances.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying a character that may have been influenced by, motivated, patterned and written after the deeds of a family member has now been made vile.

Let's say Honor was inspired by one of DW's long lost family members, and immortalized in the books, and read to generation after generation, and it became a tradition to name your first daughter after Honor. Who wants to be named after Honor if the Honor in the future is vile, despicable and shameful. And that's the good side of her. Let alone read the current books of her to your offspring.

Heck, I'd be furious with DW if HE bastardized Honor. And she's HIS character. For a minute in UH ...

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by tlb   » Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:21 pm

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cthia wrote:That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying a character that may have been influenced by, motivated, patterned and written after the deeds of a family member has now been made vile.

Let's say Honor was inspired by one of DW's long lost family members, and immortalized in the books, and read to generation after generation, and it became a tradition to name your first daughter after Honor. Who wants to be named after Honor if the Honor in the future is vile, despicable and shameful. And that's the good side of her. Let alone read the current books of her to your offspring.

Heck, I'd be furious with DW if HE bastardized Honor. And she's HIS character. For a minute in UH ...

How does that have anything to do with copyright? Copyright does not necessarily stop parody, which can make a character a laughingstock. Any other author could create a character named Honor, that was dishonorable (as long as the last name was not Harrington and she was not an officer in the Navy of Manticore).
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:19 am

cthia
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If Collin's gloves come off because the GA may be too much to chew in an all out war in the future, why wouldn't they assassinate at will and Kew to compliance? They've shown they don't care about collateral damage to people places or things, so why wouldn't they simply decimate populations on planets? Buccaneer and Parthian Shot had to have originated from Malignant minds, and may not even be the tip of the iceberg.

The RF and the MA are the good cop bad cop anyway. The RF can simply feign outrage. I believe that at some point, the MA are set to pull their final Houdini, if need be, as their ultimate contingency plan. The lower lines will be thrown under the GA bus.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 22, 2020 3:41 am

cthia
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What if the plot is really thicker than we think. I hate when plots are thicker than we think, don't you love it too? LOL

Honor turned out to be a lost Alpha Line.

The Volsungs were a "lost" appendage of the Andermani. They were ruthless mercenaries. Their overall successes could have funded and birthed the Detweilers. It could also point to why there was an assassination in the Anderman Empire. It could be personal like the beef with Beowulf. Connecting the dots in such a large galaxy is difficult. Is the timeline amenable?

Wiki :shock: Leaks wrote:The Volsungs originated from Gustav Anderman's mercenaries. After the conquest of the Nimbalkar System, Anderman and Gensonne parted ways. With his core crew and a couple of small ships given to him by Anderman, Gensonne established a growing ruthless mercenary organization. Initially, their seat was located somewhere on the fringes of the Solarian League. In the early 1540s PD, a privy headquartes of the Volsungs was located in the city of Rochelle on the planet Telmach in the Silesian Confederacy.

Axelrod's plot against Manticore
In the early 1540s PD, the Volsung Mercenaries were hired by the Axelrod Corporation to conquer the Manticore System. Axelrod's aim was control of the recently discovered local wormhole junction. In 1543 PD, a 16-unit Volsung force under Gensonne's command was defeated by the weaker Royal Manticoran Navy. During that battle, the Volsungs fought according to Solarian naval doctrine. (MA2)

They were later lured into the Battle of Danak with Operation Embuscade and the Battle of Walther with Operation Verrӓterweg to avoid exposing Axelrod's actions. (MA3)


There are only six degrees of separation.

.
Last edited by cthia on Sun Aug 23, 2020 2:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Sat Aug 22, 2020 10:14 am

cthia
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Whattaya know, three posts in-a-row, ticky-tacky-toe.


Out of the mouth of babes. An old parlor game. A way to defeat the suicide protocols? A smile is confirmation. Suppose . . .

"If he'll drop dead if you ask him questions, mom, then just play—"

"CHARADES!" :idea: Charades is a parlor or party word guessing game. Originally, the game was a dramatic form of literary charades: a single person would act out each syllable of a word or phrase in order, followed by the whole phrase together, while the rest of the group guessed. A variant was to have teams who acted scenes out together while the others guessed. Today, it is common to require the actors to mime their hints without using any spoken words, which requires some conventional gestures. Puns and visual puns were and remain common.

Literary charades

The Triumph of Clytemnestra

Becky as a Louis-Quatorze Philomela


A charade was a form of literary riddle popularized in France in the 18th century where each syllable of the answer was described enigmatically as a separate word before the word as a whole was similarly described. The term charade was borrowed into English from French in the second half of the eighteenth century, denoting a "kind of riddle in which each syllable of a word, or a complete word or phrase, is enigmatically described or dramatically represented".

Written forms of charade appeared in magazines, books, and on the folding fans of the Regency. The answers were sometimes printed on the reverse of the fan, suggesting that they were a flirting device, used by a young woman to tease her beau. One charade composed by Jane Austen goes as follows:

When my first is a task to a young girl of spirit,
And my second confines her to finish the piece,
How hard is her fate! but how great is her merit
If by taking my whole she effects her release!

The answer is "hem-lock".

William Mackworth Praed's poetic charades became famous.

Later examples omitted direct references to individual syllables, such as the following, said to be a favorite of Theodore Roosevelt:

I talk, but I do not speak my mind
I hear words, but I do not listen to thoughts
When I wake, all see me
When I sleep, all hear me
Many heads are on my shoulders
Many hands are at my feet
The strongest steel cannot break my visage
But the softest whisper can destroy me
The quietest whimper can be heard.

The answer is "an actor".


In the early 20th century, the 11th edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica offered these two prose charades as "perhaps as good as could be selected":

"My first, with the most rooted antipathy to a Frenchman, prides himself, whenever they meet, upon sticking close to his jacket; my second has many virtues, nor is its least that it gives its name to my first; my whole may I never catch!".


and

"My first is company; my second shuns company; my third collects company; and my whole amuses company".

with the answers being tartar and conundrum.


—Wiki.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by ThinksMarkedly   » Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:06 am

ThinksMarkedly
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cthia wrote:If Collin's gloves come off because the GA may be too much to chew in an all out war in the future, why wouldn't they assassinate at will and Kew to compliance? They've shown they don't care about collateral damage to people places or things, so why wouldn't they simply decimate populations on planets? Buccaneer and Parthian Shot had to have originated from Malignant minds, and may not even be the tip of the iceberg.


We know the Plan was to severely reduce the population of the settled worlds so they would be controllable. We don't know how they planned on accomplishing that but we do know they had a very casual disregard for life and the Edict. So they could definitely use such a thing if it supported their goals.

The thing is that it probably doesn't support the goals right now. The more atrocities there are, the more the public opinion is galvanised against them. The GA and the SL leadership don't need any more convincing and the GA public (especially Manticoran and Beowulfan) doesn't either. But what of the average Solarian in the street or Verger? How about the independent shippers? The more atrocities happen early on, the more people will turn against them, driving up recruitment into armed forces and intelligence services, or just plain informants.

Finally, how about the Mesans and RFers themselves? The MAlign leadership in Mesa is gone and the control in the RF is just a few infiltrated families. Can they hold the population back? Wouldn't that create more Jacks and Zacks McBrydes?

The RF and the MA are the good cop bad cop anyway. The RF can simply feign outrage. I believe that at some point, the MA are set to pull their final Houdini, if need be, as their ultimate contingency plan. The lower lines will be thrown under the GA bus.


The bad cop is still a cop. You don't see the strategy of "good cop and murderous, lunatic assassin."

So again, they will escalate, eventually. My concern is not that, it's the rate.
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by Jonathan_S   » Sat Aug 22, 2020 9:30 pm

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tlb wrote:How does that have anything to do with copyright? Copyright does not necessarily stop parody, which can make a character a laughingstock. Any other author could create a character named Honor, that was dishonorable (as long as the last name was not Harrington and she was not an officer in the Navy of Manticore).

That's also my not-a-lawyer understanding.

Though Disney definitely confuses the issue when during copyright extension lobbying they make claims that they need to retain copyright on all Mickey Mouse works to keep America's children from being subjected to lewd non-Disney Mickey Mouse movies. Copyright would keep someone from making a lewd version of a specific Mickey Mouse movies (say the Sorcerers Apprentice); because that would be an unauthorized derivative work. But it's a trademark on the Mouse that keeps people from using the character in their own original works. And they can already can hold a trademark as long as they continue to use it and defend it.
The trademark on Mickey would prevent people from making new Mickey Mouse movies even if the copyright expired on the oldest ones. (But trademark wouldn't stop them from publicly playing, or selling exact copies, of the old movies without Disney's permission)
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Re: Collin's assassination list
Post by cthia   » Sun Aug 23, 2020 12:29 am

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Jonathan_S wrote:
tlb wrote:How does that have anything to do with copyright? Copyright does not necessarily stop parody, which can make a character a laughingstock. Any other author could create a character named Honor, that was dishonorable (as long as the last name was not Harrington and she was not an officer in the Navy of Manticore).

That's also my not-a-lawyer understanding.

Though Disney definitely confuses the issue when during copyright extension lobbying they make claims that they need to retain copyright on all Mickey Mouse works to keep America's children from being subjected to lewd non-Disney Mickey Mouse movies. Copyright would keep someone from making a lewd version of a specific Mickey Mouse movies (say the Sorcerers Apprentice); because that would be an unauthorized derivative work. But it's a trademark on the Mouse that keeps people from using the character in their own original works. And they can already can hold a trademark as long as they continue to use it and defend it.
The trademark on Mickey would prevent people from making new Mickey Mouse movies even if the copyright expired on the oldest ones. (But trademark wouldn't stop them from publicly playing, or selling exact copies, of the old movies without Disney's permission)

Do note the inclusive.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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